Victoria Raschke: [Intro Music] Welcome to WitchLit, a place to talk about the craft of writing and writing the craft. I'm your host, Victoria Raschke, author, publisher, witch, and nosy scorpio. Sandra Santiago is a radical educator, activist and poet. Sandra is initiated in various branches of African spirituality. She is the Lucumí Priestess of Obatala, as well as a Yaya Nganga in Palo Mayombe. She is a certified Reiki Master and is accredited by the World Metaphysical Association and the Accreditation Council of Holistic Healers. Sandra is a medium in the Afro Caribbean tradition of Espiritismo and has been offering consultations and readings since 2010. Her work can be defined as decolonization therapy. It is a healing process where wounded spirits and souls from disenfranchised groups can work to recover from historical trauma, racism and other collective ills caused by the long term negative effects of colonization. Sandra's work has been published in various anthologies, including Shades of Faith: Minority Voices in Paganism, and Shades of Ritual: Minority Voices in Practice. And she has contributed to The Wild Hunt, a daily online news journal. She has also taught at many gatherings, conferences, and venues across the United States. Her latest publication is a chapter in Llewellyn's Complete Book of North American Folk Magic, Lucumí,  Espiritismo, and the Windy City: African Diaspora Magical Faiths. Sandra Santiago, welcome to Witchlit.

Sandra Santiago: Thank you so much for having me.

Victoria Raschke: I am so excited to talk to you. We have, um, not had a Lucumí practitioner on [crosstalk], so it'll be great to talk about some stuff that maybe listeners aren't as familiar with[crosstalk], I'm excited about. But our first question for everyone, um, and I think this might be especially interesting because both of your traditions are really oral traditions [crosstalk] is in this age of all the ways to communicate, why write?

Sandra Santiago: Right? Why write? Um, because it's time to disseminate the information. Um, in this age of technology, um, it's important to keep these traditions alive. And I think that even though these are oral traditions, these are ancient traditions and we call them ancient technologies, um, the knowledge, um, has to evolve with the times and so it is written.

Victoria Raschke: Yeah. Um, did you always want to write or did the writing kind of come as this want to kind of distribute this information? Chicken and egg.

Sandra Santiago: Actually, I was an English major in college and um, I wasn't feeling it, but I've always written poetry as a child [crosstalk], as a young person and just English classes, I wasn't feeling it. So then I went into film [crosstalk],  and then I went into education and I figured I could do everything as an educator. So, um, it kind of came naturally. So yeah.

Victoria Raschke: Mhm. That makes sense. And I do, it's funny you say that because I do think education, depending on where you land in education, you do have the opportunity to be creative in so many ways to get that information across. Um, what age did you teach or what did you teach?

Sandra Santiago: Yeah. Ah, I am an early childhood educator yeah, I have my, um, undergrad in education, and my master's is in language, bilingual education [crosstalk]. So that takes it from little ones to big ones, like adult learning. But, um, my bread and butter is actually teaching little people.

Victoria Raschke: Awesome. Yeah. So I imagine that, um, need to write poetry. Children love poetry. Children especially love rhymed poetry because I think stimulates their brains. But also felt like you just have opportunity to get so much packed into there, you’re right.

Sandra Santiago: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. No, um, the writing, actually. Um, I was in the performance poetry scene for a while, for a long while in Chicago, and then I left and did some stuff in Minnesota. Some performance poetry came back to Chicago, but at that point, just the nature of the scene, um, changed and so, um, yeah, I kind of just write for myself and then I was invited to write for The Wild Hunt a couple of times. And, um, I really just like talking about my practice. So ask me and I'll tell you. Let's write about it.

Victoria Raschke: Yeah. Awesome. So now I have a question, though. Um, because you write, you're an educator, and your actual faith practice requires a lot of engagement with travel and time and all of that. So how do you balance all of that and have time for creative space for you?

Sandra Santiago: Uh, because I'm a teacher, I do most of my creative stuff in the summer and on break. So I'm lucky that my work provides me the opportunity to do what I love. So summers are mine, winter breaks, spring breaks, those are mine. And that's when I can really focus on my paint. So my painting, my jewelry making, um, my creative side comes out during that time. That's my downtime.

Victoria Raschke: Yeah. Uh, but that's great. And I think it's so good for people to hear that. We've talked about this a lot with other writers on the show, and I talk about it with writers I know in my life, is that I think there's this stereotype that to be a writer, you have to get up at 04:00 every morning and write all day and like, most people can't really do that. Right. I mean it’s not reality. 

Sandra Santiago: I think it was Toni Morrison who'd put her babies to bed, you know in an interview, she said she'd put her babies to bed and then her writing time was like 10:00 to four in the morning. And sometimes that comes when the inspiration hits. And when those words are right you just, you got to do it. You take their notes, you have your notebook next to your bed. That might sound kind of stereotypical, but yeah, I kind of just flow with it, so.

Victoria Raschke: I am a big believer in carrying a notebook because you just never know when an idea is going to hit you, right.

Sandra Santiago: Exactly. Um, especially coming out of the mouth of babes. They might say something that's inspirational and say like, oh my gosh, where did this come from? And then just take it and just go with that, so																		.

Victoria Raschke: Yeah, I hadn't even thought about all the inspiration you would get from your students. Yeah, that totally makes sense too. [crosstalk] Awesome. Um so the North American folklore. I keep wanting to say folklore. It's folk magic. I keep saying the title wrong. The Folk Magic Book, um, edited by Cory Thomas Hutcheson for folks who don't know, it's been out for a little bit. Um, so how did you get involved in that project?

Sandra Santiago: Yeah, so living in Minnesota was really great because, um, there aren't a lot of people who, um, practice my faith. And so the pagan community is amazing over there. And I really, um, was able to connect with a lot of people from the pagan community and Cory was one of the people. Um, and it's like, hey, I need somebody who knows about this or who knows about that. So people would refer me out. Mhm. And that's just kind of how I connected with Cory. And, um, here we are.

Victoria Raschke: Awesome. Yeah, there was so much I mean, it's funny to me in a brief chapter how much you were able to just kind of smash in there. There's so much information, but, um, I think one of the things that really struck me is and then it shows up in your biography, too, for folks who haven't read the chapter yet, um, the idea of the idea isn't really the right word, even just the reality, I guess, of, um, reclaiming these practices as decolonization [crosstalk: yes]. And how important that is. And I really wanted to give you an opportunity to talk about that.

Sandra Santiago: Absolutely. Um, it's something that is just so ingrained in me, and I think that as a person of color, I think we are bombarded by expectations and by, um, just what whiteness expects of us. [crosstalk] Right. And so this is an anticolonial stance. I mean, in the 70s you had the Brown Berets and the Young Lords were doing a lot of social justice work in the community. And I think the new social justice work comes, um, with the reclaiming of indigenous practices. And so, um, this is a stance against, uh, um, colonialism, um, mainstream, um, standards of what is. I think that, you know even writing for The Wild Hunt and writing, um, this chapter. Um, I think about, um, what colonialism did to, to, to kill a culture, to kill the indigenous cultures and African cultures. Um, and so this is reclaiming of ancestral knowledge, actually, and coming back to who may maybe embodying who we are as a whole person, I think parts of us have been taken away. And, um, now I'm getting on the spiritual side. If we're talking about how, um, the soul, pieces of our soul are taken, are left in places of trauma and intergenerational trauma, I mean, go into intergenerational trauma and what has happened to pieces of those souls within us and our ancestors, this is reclaiming all that all that knowledge. And in reclaiming that. We're putting those pieces back [crosstalk] and, um, almost calling those pieces back from where they were, whether they were on the land, in the ocean, wherever our ancestors are buried or died, or mass graves, whatever you want to call it. We're calling them back to us through these practices.

Victoria Raschke: Yeah, I think that is real clear in the chapter. And I pulled up, ah, a couple of things from Wild Hunt where you kind of talk about the same thing. I think part of it may even be an excerpt from the chapter, but, um, yeah, uh, I think it's such an important conversation. And it's one of those things where I feel like for people outside the community, especially for white people outside of the practice community, I think pagans are better about understanding that these are closed practices and not to socially appropriate or not to culturally appropriate from them. But I think in some ways, sometimes it goes too far. The other way of like, I don't get to know about this. [crosstalk] And I think what your chapter does and some other work in this book and other work that's coming out, it's like, no, we want you to know we're here. And these are the things that you can know about and share with. And so I kind of wanted to see what you thought about that, or kind of talk about that a little bit, too.

Sandra Santiago: Yeah, I think education is important. I think that part of understanding right, is not to live in fear, but once you become educated, then you have a better understanding. Um, and some practices are closed. So I could speak as much as I could about just the general information. [crosstalk] Everything that I put in that chapter is like general information that's the primer for anybody who's not aware, doesn't know, or has heard, but doesn't know where to search for information. Just basic working knowledge to understand, um, what's going on. Because a lot of the stuff that's coming out, because people are now living in their spirituality and it is present. It's kind of like, here we are, moment in time. Um, we're seeing more of the African deities, of these deities being spoken of and sung about. I mean, think of years ago when Beyonce a couple years ago, Beyonce did this whole, um, performance, uh, at the Grammys dedicated to Oshún, Oshún, who is goddess of fertility and love. And, um, uh, people were like, what's going on? And so this kind of gives you an understanding. Who was Oshún? Who was Shango? Who are these deities? And so I think that education is key, um, so that people don't become afraid or, um, are not afraid to ask questions or just having some basic knowledge. It's really funny because, um, when I lived in Minnesota, I think a lot of white people had a hard time asking questions. And I was like, look, I'm not taking it personally. So you have a question. I can't speak for all people of color, but I can speak for myself. [crosstalk] And I had a lot of wonderful pagans ask some really great questions that they didn't know where to go to just because they didn't have the resource [crosstalk] or were scared. And as an educator, hey, I'm here to support. And a lot of people of color don't want to educate. [crosstalk] And I get it because it's not our job to, but because I have these relationships with people and they felt comfortable and they were trusting, loving, caring relationships, then we could have these conversations.

Victoria Raschke: Right. Yeah. And I think you mentioned fear there. And I think I think about fear of kind of African traditional religions in two ways. I think pagans are afraid of stepping on somebody's toes or doing something wrong if they're aware. I think there are probably still people who need to learn that lesson out there. So I don't want to say that's resolved because I don't think that is either. But I think there's also just generalized fear that these are somehow dark and scary. And we still have the ghost of the Satanic panic and all that stuff. And I'm just so glad to see that so much is coming out. These are not things to be feared in that way. Do you still encounter that as a practitioner with people?

Sandra Santiago: Always. I mean, I was on TikTok this morning and somebody was talking about Orisha, and they're like, this is demonic, and all this kind of stuff. So there's even backlash within the community. Um, and I am in no way making light of anything but Christ is king, right. Within the Christian sect and, um, within our own people of color, christ is king. This is demonic, this is evil. You're going to hell. Save yourself now. And it's like, thanks. Thank you for that. I'm  going to keep it moving. But, yeah, we encounter that all the time. Um, even today, ah, there was a ceremony for Yemayá, who's goddess of the sea. Mother, mother of all. It wasn't able to make it really early. Um, but one reason to do it so early is because the stigma, it's like at the crack of dawn. I wasn't able to drive all the way over there today in Chicago. But, um, yeah, one reason to do it, it's because it's sacred. And sometimes we do need a witness when we do ceremony, but this was just a really calling to the community to honor. And even in that, there's going to be something, there's going to be someone saying something. So.

Victoria Raschke: Um, like, only driving out the ignorance can help there. Right?

Sandra Santiago: Exactly. And so I'm glad that Cory put this together. Um, I think this is a great primer for anybody looking searching for searching for something. I think that I had a friend and he was just I don't feel it. The Christianity. I don't feel it. I know what I'm supposed to be doing, but I'm not feeling it. I think I'm driven to find something else. And this is a great resource. What connects with you? What is ancestor leading you to? What is spirit leading you to? You know, this might be the beginning of something.

Victoria Raschke: Yeah, I hope so. Yeah, like you said, it's a great resource. Um, you know, there’s like, over 20 contributors. [crosstalk] There's a lot there. And I think, um, because now people can see this in one place, then you have all of the doors to open from that. The references that people use in their chapter and the writers themselves and other things have written. So I'm really hopeful of that and , you know, one of the things I think has been exciting is that publishers like Llewellyn and Wiser and other publishers, you know, even big publishers have small influence around spirituality issues. Are publishing more about, um, African traditional religions and African derived religions in the US and Canada. We see more about, um, Latin American belief systems and things like that, too. And I think, like you said, it's more gets out there that can be shared to just to understand the culture of it, not to tell you how to practice this. And I hope that people see that and support these books because I just really feel like it's so important.

Sandra Santiago: Absolutely. 

Victoria Raschke: So what, like for you writing wise, since we're mostly podcasts about writing, but I was talking about all these other things, all these bigger ideas. Um, so writing wise, what is your goal from here? What do you hope comes out of this project? Or what's next on the horizon for you as a writer?

Sandra Santiago: Well, um, if you know Ivo Dominguez [crosstalk: mhm]. Yeah, he invited me to write, um, the Aquarius Witch.

Victoria Raschke: Oh, wonderful.

Sandra Santiago: So, I wrote something out. It's still in the works. He just came out. I think it was Aries witch.

Victoria Raschke: Yeah, I think the first one just came out.

Sandra Santiago: Yeah. So I'm working on Aquarius Witch, so I was really excited about that. Um, I've been also invited to write to some other, um publications. But time wise, it's just so hard. [crosstalk] Because I do it the time constraints to write, um, as well as the work that I do with my plan, my planning, my lesson planning and all wonderful things with teacherhood, [crosstalk] um, it has been really difficult. Uh, so I have to pick and choose, but it's been really exciting to have just some offers come my way. So any offers in the summer? I'm taking offers now. The plug. 

Victoria Raschke: Good plug. Good plug. Sandra's available. Anyone who's listening in the summer.

Sandra Santiago: Um, I hope I really hope to be able to do more writing. I kind of feel like the market's really saturated right now with all these books on being a Bruja and Brujeria and the American Bruja, and I'm just like what hasn't already been said that I can say? [crosstalk] so I'm just kind of waiting it out. I'm looking for my niche, my niche and um, just see what moves me. I have a lot on my mind. I have a lot to say. I haven't found the topic. To put it. To culminate all this information, all this knowledge. [crosstalk]. So I'm kind of waiting and thinking, um, always writing. Right. We always write and just seeing what comes from that.

Victoria Raschke: Yeah. I feel like there has been a lot published, especially just in the last two or three years. It seems like there's been a lot, but, um, hopefully we're just scratching the surface of what people have to say to you. Um, I've heard more people talk about Espiritismo, but I haven't seen a lot of books specifically about it.

Sandra Santiago: There are there are a lot of books, and it's really interesting because there are a lot of more books. If you type it in, there's a lot of information. A lot of the books in Espeiritismo. So do you know about Allan Kardec?

Victoria Raschke: I have heard the name.

Sandra Santiago: Yes! And there's actually a movie on Netflix about him.

Victoria Raschke: Oh, wow.

Sandra Santiago: Okay. So Allan Kardec, that's not really his name. I can't remember his full name, but Allan Kardedc was his spiritist name.

Victoria Raschke: And that was the person who brought it to Puerto Rico, is that right?

Sandra Santiago: That’s right. And so all of his writings, basically, he transcribed writings as a medium. So all the books that are out by him are books [crosstalk] that we still use in our seances. Um, how to communicate with spirits. What the spirit's perspective on life, death, and the world? There's just so much out there. Um, so those are like, our primers. Those are Epiritistas, those are our primers. But, um, there are a lot of other books based on those writings. [crosstalk] Um, kind of, um, of, uh, revamping what was written. I mean, it's been translated into I don't know how many languages. So things have gotten lost in translation and a lot in Spanish. A lot of the Spanishes are archaic, so it's been translated into modern Spanish and then into modern English. So there's a lot of information out there and people explaining what Espiritismo is. I have a very good friend. Uh, Sancista Brujo Luis. He's also written a really great book on Espiritismo. He breaks down everything. Um, so he's another great resource and friend.

Victoria Raschke: Oh, yeah, that's good to know. And it fascinates me. I've done a, um, book, I write fiction, and I'm working on a book that has, um, some spiritualism background around Lily Dale and that colony establishing. And so I kind of got some sidelines into the other branches that exist from this very fruitful time, I guess, in the burned over district and all of that stuff of New York. So it's been interesting. Yeah. Um I don't know. The history is fascinating. I think it's easy, especially as a researcher, to get caught up in the history and not think about current practice and how none [crosstalk] of this is trapped in amber. And how everything changes and grows.

Sandra Santiago: Absolutely. Um, and so, again, he was like, Why? Right. Because this has to continue. And so hopefully, um, and also demystifies it. I think there's a lot and educates a lot of people are not spiritism versus I think I can't remember what the other ones? There's spiritism and spiritiu-. I can't remember there was two different, um, um, topics. And with this one, I think it just really demystifies what it is, explains it. Um, yeah. And like you said, it has to evolve and grow. Um, and that's important because then there's death and there's death of the practice, death of the religion. And some people, it's not so much a religion as it is a practice, but because there's so many religious aspects to it. Um, but we wanted to continue.

Victoria Raschke: Yeah. To me, that's the important thing. Um, it's the beauty and the danger of oral traditions. Right?

Sandra Santiago: Yes, yes, absolutely.

Victoria Raschke: Um um yes. Writing wise, how is having this chapter you've obviously gotten some more stuff kind of coming on your plate, but how has that been for you to get that published, get that out there? Just personally, as a writer, how's that for you?

Sandra Santiago: Exciting! Yeah, somebody wants to hear from me. I think it goes back to that trauma I had as a child where nobody listened to me. Like, people I know stuff, but this is in a different context that was more speedy, seasonal kind of stuff. But the fact that I've been entrusted to, um, be a disseminator of information, um, and it's just kind of come full circle for me. And I'm really excited. I can’t. Yeah, I’m thrilled. I'm excited, um, as a writer, to have people read your ideas. And it’s not even like, I think fiction writing is amazing. Um, but this is so different. It's like educating, right? And so to be able to educate, that's really great. I love educating people. And also I've done workshops. Um, I used to do a lot of work with Santa Muerte, so I did workshops on Santa Muerte. I did workshops on orisha on, um, spiritism. And I'm able to put this, um, in paper and have people and maybe educate more people than if I was just at a workshop [crosstalk]. The more people get to understand and learn. And that's really exciting to me.

Victoria Raschke: Yeah, I think that. Uh, well, there's always that feeling as a writer, like, when you see it in print on the page, [crosstalk] that feeling of accomplishment. But I think you're right. When you're writing nonfiction, that education piece, especially for someone who is an educator. That has to be exciting. I'm excited for you, and you can hear it in your voice, how excited you are. Um, so, uh, we've talked a little bit about what next, but long term goals for you. Would you want to write full time? Is this, like, the career trajectory [crosstalk] you see yourself on?

Sandra Santiago: I don't think I'd be able to do that. Maybe when I retire. I'm far from retirement age. Um, it's ahead of me over there. I see it coming in the tunnel. But that's something that I really would love to do, I wish I could do. I'm hoping that after this chapter and just how I've been motivated to do a little more writing for myself, um, putting all these pieces together, I really do hope to come out with something in the next couple of years. Um, again, there's just so much out there. The market, I feel, is really saturated, and I'm like, good for them. Knowledge is out there. Um, I'm just really thinking about what to say and how to say it. [crosstalk] What to talk about. There is just, girl, there is so much out there on the topic it’s like, and a lot of times I feel like a lot of it repeats itself just because it's, like, the common knowledge and the common practices. So I'm just kind of waiting in the wings and waiting for my time. But being, uh, a full time writer, that is the dream. I mean, I was an English major, like, freshman year in college, so that would be the dream.

Victoria Raschke: Fellow English major, I see you. [crosstalk] Uh, I tell people I mostly write full time, but I still have, like, a contract job, so I cannot support myself writing at this point.

Sandra Santiago: Right. That is a dream. And that's why I'm like, I don't think I could be able to do that full time.

Victoria Raschke: But, uh, I love the idea of having something. I mean, I'm, um, a Generation X person, and I think we've all been like, retirement. What's retirement? [crosstalk] Like, what is that? Do we get to do that?

Sandra Santiago: But I don't know.

Victoria Raschke: Having something that you can take into perhaps past a public work life into our third act.

Sandra Santiago: Yes.

Victoria Raschke: I'm still not 100% comfortable with elder. Not there yet. Uh, I'm close, but I'm not there yet.

Sandra Santiago: Oh, I'm moving into it. I love it. I love it. I love elderhood. I'm moving into it. And happily.

Victoria Raschke: Yeah, I'm not quite ready, I think. I mean, I turned 50 last year. I'm like, oh, this is when you're supposed to be this is when you're supposed to be, like, looking at elderhood. But 50 feels so different than what I thought it would. Like, if you told me I would feel like this at 50, at, uh, 20, I'd have been no, I'll be in a rocking chair in a retirement home.

Sandra Santiago: That was 50 then, this is the new 50. We're still getting tattoos and saving our exactly. I still have my Docs, man.

Victoria Raschke: Yes, exactly. It was a totally different 50. Looks totally different. I can't remember who was on the show. It might have been Phoenix Lefae. We were talking about the Golden Girls, like when they were on. They were in their 50s.

Sandra Santiago: Yeah, I just found that out and it's like, no way.

Victoria Raschke: Yeah. Okay. Clearly what 50 is, has changed.

Sandra Santiago: Well, I’m not looking, like an Estelle Getty anytime soon. Or at least I'm not trying to you know what I'm saying? No.

Victoria Raschke: Um although I will say, Bea Arthur has some style.

Sandra Santiago: Yes, she did.

Victoria Raschke: She has some style and some sass, which I always appreciate. Uh, yeah, it's interesting doing it just to think about that, because I do think, I don't know, and maybe this is something that is built in differently to different communities. [crosstalk] I feel like, at least in my experience as a mostly solitary practitioner, for most of my life, there's not really a step or a ceremony or a place where I go, okay, I'm stepping into my elderhood. It's like I just kind of have to bonk my own self on the head with the magic wand and say, I'm an elder, now.

Sandra Santiago: Yeah.

Victoria Raschke: And then in other communities, that's actually part of the process. So I think that is interesting to me.

Sandra Santiago: Absolutely. Um know, I have, um, a lot of friends in the indigenous [phonetically, spelling unknown] “Lan-szack” community, the Aztec dancing community here in Chicago. And I love it because they've reclaimed those ceremonies that were lost. And so there's a ceremony for motherhood and there's a ceremony when a girl has her first blood, for death, for elderhood, for stages and ages. It's a beautiful thing. In, um, Lucumí, there are certain ceremonies, um, that mark the progression of time in the practice [crosstalk] also. So that is really helpful because society has lost that. And I think that where we are with our kids nowadays, especially after COVID our society needs that in some way, shape, or form. Um yeah. Holding people accountable for their actions through their age, through, um, imparting, wisdom, all that is so imperative.

Victoria Raschke: Yeah, I know, you’re right. We have lost that. I mean, I think that when people are younger, there are the American rituals of getting your driver's license and graduating high school or college or getting married or whatever. And we do ritualize that. But once you're married, if that's your path, there's not a lot until you're dead. It's like your funeral is the next ritual that's about you.

Sandra Santiago: Yes. Agreed. Absolutely.

Victoria Raschke: Um, I agree. It's so important to me to think about that and what that means. And because of it, I think recently I've kind of sought out practicing with a group again because it feels like it's time. I don't really know how to describe it. It just feels like it's time.

Sandra Santiago: Absolutely.

Victoria Raschke: All those transitions.

Sandra Santiago: I think the group, um, group practice is important. Unfortunately for me, um, my group is in Florida, and I'm in Chicago. So it takes travel, it takes time and money to travel to get the knowledge to work with my elders. So I do seek out elders here and try to get into, um, uh, community. Uh, I'm going to say events, because it's not an event, but some of the ceremonies, like this morning, which I totally slept on, literally slept on girl 05:00 in the morning.

Victoria Raschke: 05:00 is early.

Sandra Santiago: Yeah. I gotta. Yeah. So, um, it takes, um, I think persistence. Um, because for the most part I end up being a self practitioner and I do seek out an elder to help me with that. So I do have some elders, but the community part, it's hard. This is an African based tradition where it is based in community. Back in the day, it was a whole village that practiced together, [crosstalk] not so much.

Victoria Raschke: Yeah, I was thinking about that when I was reading the chapter and then just thinking about like you said, your group's in Florida and you're in Chicago, so how. And I think I've listened to interviews with Lilith Dorsey and she talks about that too in her tradition and how yes, there are things about modern technology that have made that easier. Like travel is a little easier than it was 100 years ago, [crosstalk] but it's still expensive. It's just an outlay of that.

Sandra Santiago: Um, there's also the Internet and stuff like that, but it changes the dynamic of how to do things. Now, if I have an elder in Florida, it's like I'll call them and we'll do a telephone reading and they'll throw their shells or they'll throw, um, their, opele, right that, and that's how I get my reading. Or I'll get a reading via email, which is like, who would have thought of that? [crosstalk] Ah, a lot of people and a lot of elders that I know don't like to do that. It's not the same. But at the end of the day when we're doing some ceremonies, community, it's a communal practice. It's community. So keeping the faith is really, really, um, I don’t want to say hard, but, you have to be committed. It's a commitment. This is really a commitment.

Victoria Raschke: Yeah. Uh, I think you made that clear in the chapter, ah, as those things that can be shared. [crosstalk] Right. And I liked that idea too, or the part where you're talking about how because Chicago was such a segregated city that even the groups in Chicago were segregated from each other and then that's changing as well.

Sandra Santiago: Yeah. And the ceremonies today, a, uh, there's a group here in Chicago called Oloshas United and there are a couple of chapters in the United States and so it's about bringing the community together and holding these practices, um, as a group for people who need.

Victoria Raschke: Yeah, I like that. It's one of those ways that things change and evolve, right?

Sandra Santiago: Yes.

Victoria Raschke: That's beautiful. That just seems exciting to me, especially I was wondering in just reading that, because especially now things are complicated and expensive and if the practicing in community is so dependent on being in a certain place, how then would a community change and react to that for people who just can't afford to do that? How do you embrace [crosstalk] the craziness that we're in right now? I guess.

Sandra Santiago: Yeah, so a lot of telephone calls or FaceTime, um, and just understanding that you're going to have to go either. Some people get initiated in Cuba, mhm, and so it's like there's one woman, Marta Moreno, um, Vega, who is one of the, she's an artist, she's in New York and her group, the house is called an ile. Her ile is in Cuba. So back in the 70s, 80s when she got initiated, she would have to go back to Cuba and she couldn't as often. But then she just created this whole, um, um, she just does wonderful work to bring all the communities together now as an elder in the community. But I think that when you initiate, you go in knowing that you are going to have to come back to the place of initiation, the place of basically your birth, because this is a rebirthing of you and do the work. Uh, another way is to maybe connect with another group in your local town, mhm. And so that's what I've been able to do. There's been, um, some of the groups lately, I talked about, um, and I am able to engage with them and do ceremony with them. Um, sometimes I have elders here in Chicago who will come and do the ceremonies that I need. We'll gather some people here in my home and do what needs to be done for them. Or they come from Florida and they come stay with we. [crosstalk] We work it the way it needs to be worked. It's not always the best way to do it, but it gets done [crosstalk] because the ritual needs to be done.

Victoria Raschke: Yeah, I always say witches, uh, make do. [crosstalk] And I think that lots of magical communities.

Sandra Santiago: Exactly. And that's how it's always been. I mean, if you think about it, the herbs, the plants and the tools of Africa are not the herbs, the plants and tools of Chicago [crosstalk]. That's the evolution of the uses of the herbs and sometimes we have to send out to Florida to man. Like, we're waiting on herbs to come from Florida so we can do what we need to do.

Victoria Raschke: The, the bioregionalism of Chicago and Florida are very different. Or Cuba even to Florida and Chicago. Like, ugh. And uh uh, know, it's one of the things that, you know, when you get in your own little bubble, you don't think about and then when you learn about it, you're just oh, like it's this beautiful unfolding of knowledge. So thank you for sharing that because I think it's really important to hear, A, how other people do things and how other people organize around this kind of global practice that a lot of us have. And how you just make those things work and are connected, but still distant.

Sandra Santiago: And if you think about it, there are practitioners in Spain, there are practitioners in European countries like Sweden. It's insane how it's evolved and it's grown. [crosstalk] Um, and so it's like they're all the way over there. How do they get these Cuban herbs and what they have to go through? So I think it's really a testament of faith and it's really a testament of commitment.

Victoria Raschke: Mhm, that's beautiful. So one of the questions I do like to ask everybody and I think this is a good lead in from this is what do you most want people to take away from your writing and what you share? What do you want people to walk away with?

Sandra Santiago: Um, it's one perspective. I don't hold absolute knowledge. I think that when people open a book, the author is the expert. Especially if it's an anthology or whatever it is. The author is the expert. And I'm an expert. And I'm an expert. I'm showing my fingers like this big. Um, and I don't hold absolute knowledge. I'm giving perspective from my personal lived experience. I'm giving experience from the way I was taught and the teachings that I received. And because there are so many, um, different, I'll say iles and initiates throughout the world and throughout the United States. Some of those things might be different. Maybe the order of ceremony, how you receive elekes, the beads, how you receive um, but it's all similar, but not the same for a lot of times. And so I just want people to know I don't hold absolute knowledge, but this is my truth, this is how I was taught, these are the teachings that I'm sharing, um, with people. And um, I hope that there is some learning done and I hope that people enjoy reading and adding to their understanding of spirituality. 

Victoria Raschke: Yeah, I like that. Um, so before we get to our game of chance question at the end, I, ah, wanted to give you an opportunity to talk about, uh, are you going to plug whatever you want? Where can people find you? What's going on? This will air in October.
Sandra Santiago: Okay?

Victoria Raschke: So just like if you've got an appearance or something, anything you want to share with folks and where they can find out more about you.

Sandra Santiago: Stay tuned for the Aquarius Witch. Uh, working with Ivo on that. Let's see. And big shout out and hug and uh, love, uh, to Ivo who's recovering. Um, I know he was very ill, I'm glad he's recovering and I'm just so grateful to him for embracing me. So I love you, Ivo, if you're listening, um, so look out for that. And in the meantime, um, I can be found on Facebook. I am hija de Obatala, daughter of Obatala in Spanish. Also, I have a Facebook page called all, of wings and warriors. And I have another Facebook page ATR um African Traditional Religion: ATR that's what it stands for ATR in the Midwest. So it's a page where I just, again, disseminating information. I'm not there to fight, I'm not there to some, some of these Facebook pages are just, you know [crosstalk: spicy], um, there are people who are Sangomas from South Africa on there. There are people who are [unclear] practitioners, there are people like me, Lucumí, Ifa and just, you know, I just put stuff up to educate people. [crosstalk] So that's pretty much what's going on, I leave kind of a boring life between jewelry making and writing and teaching.

Victoria Raschke: I know, that sounds pretty exciting to me. And we'll make sure all that gets in the show notes so people can find it a little easier.

Sandra Santiago: Excellent.

Victoria Raschke: Yeah. And so our last question is a tiny game of chance. [crosstalk] And I always joke that as a scorpio, I don't know how to do small talk, which Ivo would probably appreciate. Um, uh, I'm going to roll this lovely purple die, and depending on what number I get, you'll get a question about death, sex, religion, politics, or money. [crosstalk]And if I roll the six, you get to pick which one you want.

Sandra Santiago: Oh, dear. Okay.

Victoria Raschke: Let’s see what we get. Three religion. [crosstalk] Not that we haven't been talking about that at all.

Sandra Santiago: Right, here we go.

Victoria Raschke: So I guess one of the things I think a lot of people are afraid to ask is if you're outside the community of practice of, uh, Lucumí or Espiritismo and you're interested, what is the first step? How is it the way to respectfully approach.

Sandra Santiago: Wow. Um, first thing that needs to be done is, um oh, my gosh. Loaded question.

Victoria Raschke: It is [crosstalk] kind of a loaded question.

Sandra Santiago: Find an elder. Right. But because not everybody is public and you can see me today, listeners, you can't see me, but I'm wearing some overalls and a t shirt. I don't have any insignia. I'm not walking around with white head wraps. Sometimes I do. But Saturday at home, I'm not. It's really hard to find an Elder in your community. Um, going on Facebook pages, there are a lot of predators out there, you know. Um, what I say is read up on the practice and when and I found this with myself and just a lot of people. You will be led to who you need to be led to when you're ready, but really just educate yourself on it. Um, going on forums is great for education. Um, but if you're really hungry to begin the practice and you start saying, hey, I'm looking for an Elder, who wants to be my elder, there are a lot of predators out there preying on money and just other things that I would just be really careful about. [crosstalk] Just educate yourself. Um, you can go to Oloshas United. That's a really great site. Um, and I'm just like, hey, reach out to me, I'll steer you in the right direction. I'm not trying to gain any money from anybody. I'm too busy. Yeah. Ah. But finding an Elder, which is hard. I'm sorry, my dog was really loud.

Victoria Raschke: It's okay. We love animal cameos. It's fine.

Sandra Santiago: Oh, my gosh. Um, but yeah, just reaching out to an elder, that's reputable, which is hard. But I just find that when you are ready and you put it out to the universe, that will manifest for you.

Victoria Raschke: Yeah. Uh, no, that makes sense to me.

Sandra Santiago: Because this is really the real commitment. Practitioners. Practitioners who, you know. Uh, sometimes your god and let me tell you, I'm going to say this. Sometimes the Elder that you need is not the Elder that's closest to you. Sometimes people get with elders that are close to them down the block or around, uh, in the neighborhood because it's convenient. But that convenient sometimes becomes very expensive, almost as expensive as having an Elder that's away from you. And when you are looking for an Elder, make sure that they're not asking you to do a ceremony immediately or that you have to get initiated. You have to have X, Y, and Z immediately or something bad is going to happen to you. So just follow your gut. If something doesn't feel right, then it probably isn't. I think we all have a little witchiness in us. I think that your gut is your most powerful, um, most powerful compass.[crosstalk]. And so that's something that, um, always keep in mind. Follow your gut.

Victoria Raschke: Yeah. I think that's good advice on multiple levels and multiple topics.

Sandra Santiago: Yeah, right.

Victoria Raschke: Um, I think that's important too, to hear that sometimes it may take some legwork, but you'll be led to the right place. [crosstalk] I do believe that about a lot of things.

Sandra Santiago: Absolutely.

Victoria Raschke: Awesome. Um, well, Sandra, thank you so much for coming on the show and having this conversation and writing this lovely chapter and sharing your practice, obviously within constraints. What you can share and just thank you for your lovely bubbly personality. This has been such a lovely conversation. Thank you.

Sandra Santiago: Well, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here and just talk about what I do because I don't really get a chance to do that.

Victoria Raschke: Uh, well good. Well, when you get your book written, let's do this again.

Sandra Santiago: Absolutely.

Victoria Raschke: We will plan. Awesome. All right.

Sandra Santiago: Thank you so much. 

Victoria Raschke: Well take care. All right.

Sandra Santiago: Bye. 

Victoria Raschke: Bye.

Victoria Raschke: [Outro Music] WitchLit is a production of 1000Volt Press, and is edited by Julian Raschke. Our intro music is Cosmic Glow by Andrew K. And our outro music is Voices by Aleksander Senekar. Transcripts and all our previous episodes are available at witchlitpod.com and you can follow us on Instagram @witchlitpod. Please help other witches find us by leaving a rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening to, and reading, Witch Lit.