Victoria Raschke 0:00 [Ambient music plays] Welcome to WitchLit a place to talk about the craft of writing and writing the craft. I'm your host Victoria Raschke, author, publisher, witch, and nosy Scorpio. J. Allen Cross is a practicing witch of Mexican Native American and European descent whose craft was shaped by his Catholic upbringing and mixed family culture. Living in his home state of Oregon, he works as a psychic medium occult specialist for a well known paranormal investigation team. When he's not investigating, he enjoys providing spells and potions to his local community, teaching classes for budding witches and serving up piping hot tea for his Insta familia. He co hosts the Invoking Witchcraft podcast, and is the author of American Brujeria and The Witch's Guide to the Paranormal. J. Allen Cross, welcome to WitchLit. J. Allen Cross 0:50 Thank you so much for having me here. I'm very excited to be here. Victoria Raschke 0:53 Oh, I'm so excited to have you on. And we were just talking before that you as a podcaster. You too know all of the ins and outs and exciting things can happen with podcasting. J. Allen Cross 1:05 Oh, yes. It's never boring, at least. Victoria Raschke 1:07 It's never boring. But our first question for everyone, especially in this age of podcasting, and Instagram, and all of that is why write? Why write books? J. Allen Cross 1:16 I love this question so much. And for me, it's, it's a couple of things that are sort of intertwined. When I was a little kid, I had a really intense stutter, like to the point that I could barely speak. It wasn't just something that was kind of just a little bit of an obstacle, it was something where like, actual words just would not come out. And I think that sort of when I began, the writing process was simply because it was easier for me to communicate on paper than it was verbally. And growing up, and I'm sure that led into this as well, I am a gold medalist in the Socially Awkward Olympics. [laughter] Me and people and speaking is not something that I would call my forte. So I always kind of joke that I'm better on the page, because it gives me more time. It gives me the ability to edit and to clarify and to make sure that I'm being understood in the way that I want to. Unfortunately, even then [laughter] people will interpret your things all kinds of ways. But for me, it was a way that I could try and communicate with fellow humans. That felt most comfortable for me, that gave me the most time and the most space to say what I really mean. So that's kind of where it where it began for me. Victoria Raschke 2:46 Um obviously, the stutter is not an issue at this point. But that was like from going from writing to then hosting a podcast. I mean, also, as you know, contestant in the socially awkward Olympics with you. Like people are like, you're so introverted. Why would you want to do a podcast? So it's like, because I'm just talking to one person. What is that like for you? J. Allen Cross 3:15 It was a bit of a leap. To be honest. When I did my first podcast, I was like, oh, no, oh, no. Especially because you know, as a person with anxiety, living in the culture and the online climate that we live in now, where you say one wrong thing, you phrase something in a way that could be interpreted in a certain way. You're kind of screwed. So for me kind of going into podcasting, it was very nerve wracking. Luckily, though, with my first book, when it came out, Weiser, my publisher was actually wonderful. They got me like a whole PR team, this whole thing. But that meant that I was on so many podcasts, I was for a good several months, I was on three to five podcasts a week for a while. And that really, really helped kind of acclimate me to the world of podcasting. And I do kind of like podcast, the format a little bit, especially because a lot of the time people can't actually see me. So I feel like I have a little bit of a barrier or a little bit of sense of protection there. Which is nice, as opposed to like going up and standing on stage in front of a bunch of people. Victoria Raschke 4:23 Yeah, yeah. Speaking in, into a large group is really weird. And I used to teach, and people were like, but you're fine in a classroom. I was like, Yes, but I'm in charge. I'm not a peer. It's different. J. Allen Cross 4:35 Exactly. Victoria Raschke 4:36 And I do I do wonder sometimes it's good for you to bring this up is that you know, we do kind of live in a culture where it's really easy to missed up. Unintentionally, maybe intentionally sometimes, I don't know, but mostly unintentionally. And it is, I think, a barrier for a lot of people kind of being willing to, you know, start a podcast, write a book. All of those things, like it is... You know, I always said that canceled culture isn't really what people think it is. I mean, the people who get canceled are people who don't have any power, right? Yeah, powerful people don't get cancelled. But J. Allen Cross 5:14 exactly. Victoria Raschke 5:16 It's an interesting kind of tightrope to walk. J. Allen Cross 5:20 It really is, it really is. And, you know, I, I do wonder, similarly, if it's productive. Someone posted the other day that they're like, the canceled culture is fine with the powers that be because it's not a threat to capitalism, or like you said, Those in power. It is a threat, though to other people who aren't in power. I have a lot of a lot of feelings on cancel culture. Victoria Raschke 5:45 And we didn't have to talk about that off. But, um, so I guess you mentioned the first book, and then you have your new book, The Witch's Guide to the Paranormal. So you want to talk a little bit about getting published, maybe with the first book and this one, since you're with different publishers? And I would say that from the outside, they don't seem to be one follows the other. They seem very different topics, but I don't I mean, having read them both, I think there's definitely a thread but I think looking from the outside, they don't seem to follow each other. So do you want to talk about your publishing journey? I guess, too? J. Allen Cross 6:24 Absolutely. So my publishing journey kind of was, was a bit of well, I guess a journey, I guess we'll say, definitely had its twists and turns. So I've been writing pretty much all my life, and doing witchcraft for pretty much the same amount of time. And so as an adult, I figured at some point, I would probably write a book on witchcraft. And I kind of had the idea that I wanted to kind of talk about, you know, Mexican, American folk magic, or North American folk magic, kind of in that idea. And then a friend of mine, because the universe is funny, introduced me to one of her friends named Anwen Avalon, who is a well known writer, she does the Water Witchcraft books and the Water Magic books. And, and when and I hit it off immediately, I absolutely adore her. She's kind of one of my neighbors. And she was like, You need to write a book. And at that time, she was in the process of publishing her first book, through Weiser. And so she provided that connection to her acquisitions editor at Weiser. And, but part of that was me getting on a plane with Anwen last minute, and going to Pantheacon in San Jose, where I would get to meet her acquisitions editor who's Judika Illes face to face. And that was kind of like a big part of making that happen. So I'm, me traveling is not great. Especially flying, if the Lord wanted me 3000 feet in the air, he would just call me home. [laughter] I do not handle being in the in the Pringles can hurtling through space. So, but Anwen talks to me the entire flight so that I'm totally cool. We get there. And I am able to meet with you Judika, kind of tell her what my idea is. And she kind of talks me through what they want to see for me, as far as like, you know, materials ahead of time, you know, the introduction, a couple of chapters, things like that, you know, an outline. So I go back to my hotel room, stay up all night, putting all this together, and then I send it to her for I leave and come home. And then that's kind of how it all kind of started then I get a call from her that like hey, actually, we very much do want to take this book and run with it and they did. Weiser was excellent to work with. They listened to me on a lot of things, they provided me a lot of things that gave me space to say the things that I wanted to say which was really important to me. And so they they really did their best to make sure that my first book came out with as much you know, with its best foot forward as much as possible. And that was really important to me, and I really appreciate that. When I get to my second book though, you're right, they definitely don't follow one another very well because one is about Mexican American folk magic and the next one is about paranormal investigation for witchcraft perspective and utilizing spells and witchcraft to work with hauntings and a lot of people thought that there was big drama with me switching publishers and all of this because they are kind of the two competing occult publishers that I jumped from wiser to Llewellyn but the simple fact of it is that wiser doesn't do paranormal investigation books which is is kind of the only reason they're like, that's just not something that we do. So I just went over to Llewellyn, and they were like, Absolutely, we do that. So they picked it up really quick and ran with that as well. So just the publishing, I'm like, I get to live in both worlds. It's fine. Victoria Raschke 10:17 Yeah. I mean, I do feel like there's this weird kind of like, you know, are you Weiser author? Or are you Llewellyn author, there are a whole lot of people who've published with both this seems like a silly conversation. And I mean, they are both, you know, the names most people know, for witchcraft, pagan publishing in the US, but they are a little different from and they do, like, they do kind of do things a little differently. So that makes sense. So what was the seed for the new book for the paranormal book? J. Allen Cross 10:54 This was one actually, that I knew from the beginning, was one that I was going to write, at least at some point, I didn't necessarily want it to be my debut. But it was something that I was like, No, this needs to this needs to be a thing. Because I've been doing paranormal investigation since I was 15. I won't do the math for how long it's been since then. But I have recently purchased a night cream, if that tells you anything. So doing that work, and coming at paranormal investigation as not only a witch but someone who grew up as a psychic medium, I had a very different perspective on the work. And I had a very different toolkit or bag of tricks when it came to this work. And I was sort of under the impression that a lot of people had that education and understanding of spirits in the internal investigation community and was shocked to find out that that's not a thing. And when I do parallel investigation, what's the most important to me isn't finding evidence. It's finding out what's going on, and doing what I can to help where I can. Because a lot of times, people who contact criminal investigators are dealing with some really scary stuff. And they are mostly looking for help. And unfortunately, that's not what they're getting from the paranormal investigation community at the moment. And I began to realize that when people would contact me from out of state or from really far out of my area and be like, Hey, I'm experiencing these things in my home, can you help me and I'm like, Well, I can't because I'm so far away. But let me contact your local personal investigation team, see if someone can go over there and help you. And nine times out of 10, if I would get a response at all, from the paranormal investigation team, the response would be, well, we can't do anything to help but we'd love to come take photos. And it's like, that's not helpful at all. Because once you walk into a home, and you see that the family has brought all their mattresses into the living room, so that they can be safe together at night, because of what's going on in their home. Taking photos is not going to cut it. And I find that witches and psychics and those of us who kind of are in the spiritual realm, have an ability to help people and have an ability to join paranormal investigation, where we can actually band together with evidence collecting and being helpful together so that we can actually do something that that really matters. And so I wanted to teach people to do what I do. So this book is essentially a manual for how I deal with hauntings from a spiritual witchcraft perspective. Victoria Raschke 13:48 And I, reading through the book, uh one, it was kind of interesting, because I've listened to your podcast, so I kind of had your voice in my head while you were talking while I was reading, which was nice to kind of have to have a voice behind that. But it did really come across, that came across that this is not about the sensationalism of it and the, you know, tantalization that people get from like, you know, paranormal investigation TV shows and stuff. But do you imagine in your work, this isn't really about writing this more about the book, but imagine in your work that you when people reach out to you? That is the cultural mindset that I have is this is what it's like, you know, it's the the guys with the, with the readers in the dark with their, you know, dark vision goggles, and, you know, not really, I guess, respectful? Maybe, is the word Yeah. I mean, how does that work when you meet with new people, and they have this idea of what's going to happen and then you're like, No, that's not how we work. J. Allen Cross 15:00 Absolutely, that is something that I am definitely fighting, especially in the witchcraft community, which has really surprised me. When I first started talking about my new book, and I started posting about how I felt that witches should be joining paranormal investigation, I was met with a lot of people who or a lot of witches, who were under the impression that not only was the examples of paranormal investigation on TV were completely accurate. But a lot of them were, are under the impression that paranormal investigation is only something that happens on and for television. And that if you do paranormal investigation, it's only to try and get on TV. And that was something that I was very shocked by, for a couple of reasons. Because number one, I mean, you would think that witches of all people would know that, you know, media representation is not always accurate. And also, its, paranormal investigation is something that happens off camera all the time, there are hundreds, if not 1000s, of paranormal investigation teams out there across the world, that I that aren't on TV or have no desire to be on TV, I was asked recently to be on a paranormal investigation TV show. And I was like, Please, no, I think I really don't. So I would like witches to be a little bit more open minded about it. And a lot of them too, are under this impression, probably because of TV representation, are under the impression that all paranormal investigation is very rude and disrespectful. And I had somebody tried to tell me that traditional paranormal investigation is the harassment kind. And I'm like, No, actually, most of the teams that I have come across or worked with, have very specific rules about antagonizing the spirits. And if you do, you're often off the team very quickly. That's something that we really don't play around with on my team, we're very much respectful of that. When people don't understand as well is that when you have paranormal activity happening, it's often because that spirit needs something, it's trying to get your attention. And so to go, oh, no, I won't look into that. Because that would be disrespectful to you spirit. That spirit is kind of like please no, do look into it, like I'm trying to contact you or people are like, you know, paranormal investigation should not happen in these places where traumatic things happened historically. And I'm like, if I am a spirit that is stuck there, I would want somebody to come and try and talk to me, like so that I could possibly have an opportunity to get out of there. So I think a lot of witches need to kind of expand beyond the TV representation. And a lot of people too who are our clients are, they're not never really sure what to expect when we show up. And we're often not what they may have had in mind, because my team is mostly psychic mediums. We do have investigators who come with the equipment. But mostly it's just us kind of walking around talking to the spirits in your house and figuring out what's going on. So it looks very different than what they would expect. Victoria Raschke 18:13 It sounds like from the book, your goal is also different. Like it, like you said the investigators are there to find evidence and proof and and you're like, we don't know how this works. We just want to resolve the issue for people. J. Allen Cross 18:27 Right. Victoria Raschke 18:28 And sometimes that resolution is you have pack rats in the walls. J. Allen Cross 18:31 Yeah, yeah. Sometimes it is. Victoria Raschke 18:33 I mean to people like when that's happened to people have? Like, I mean, if they have convinced themselves that something supernatural is happening in their house, and you're like, No, it's the wiring, or no, you've got an infestation of rodents. Is there like a disconnect for them? Or do they just be like, Oh, that can't be it? Or is there relief? J. Allen Cross 18:56 Um, sometimes there's relief. Just because a lot of times, that creates something that we call cognitive closure, which means that oh, great, this tied up real nicely. There's not a bunch of loose ends and things like that. And so a lot of the times it's kind of a relief for them. But I don't run into those situations very often. Simply because I've often found that if people are at the stage where they're calling a paranormal investigation team, they've probably got a haunting, simply because people don't just call paranormal investigation teams all willy nilly. In fact, it often takes a long time for them to work up to that stage because that's something that comes with a lot of stigma. They're waiting for people to ridicule them like, What do you mean you think your house is on and you're calling a paranormal team like what? So by the time people have actually kind of worked up to it, then I'm you're, you're pretty, you're pretty much like, yep, something's going on here. They've experienced something, they've seen something that really, I find most people do actually have a hunting if they think they do. Yeah. This is like, like you're saying, basically, they've had their electrician out. They've had pest control. And they're like, there's nothing in your house. Yes. So, no, that makes sense. That makes sense. Kind of to get back to the, I guess, writing aspect of it. So you have a podcast, you do paranormal investigation, you're writing books. Do you have a day job too like? How do you balance all these things? What is your writing life look like? That is a great question. I'm writing when I can. I'm lucky to work from home. And we've been blessed with certain circumstances that have allowed me to write pretty much full time this last year. And I've given the opportunities to do things, like write articles, where I make a little bit of money, doing that, which is great. And I do witchcraft full time as a job. So a lot of my day to day life is doing things like tarot readings for people and, you know, doing spell consultations, or spiritual coaching or things like that. And so I get to set my own schedule, which is really nice. So I can carve out time for writing, which is very important to me. And so I spend what I can, the time that I can, you know, writing and for me, though, being being the one that stays home, you know, sometimes you sit down to write and that pile of dishes is just staring at you. So you got to get up. You got to that first, and then and then do the writing. And then do the writing. Sp Yeah. Victoria Raschke 21:43 Oh, no, I relate to that. One of the things that I miss in the pre COVID times is when I would have those days where like, everything in the house was a distraction for writing. I would just go sit in a coffee shop and write. Yeah, and now it's not as comfortable doing that. Yeah. I mean I'm in California is I could probably sit outside, but then I can't see my screen. Right. You know, it's weird to have that. Like, I guess I don't really a crutch, but like a tool that I use to get out of that headspace of, oh, let me alphabetize the pantry instead of writing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So with, it sounds like with a lot of what you're doing with writing with your, your actual witchcraft practice. And with the paranormal investigation, you're kind of, I mean, you're a public witch, basically, so what is that, like, I mean, I, I've talked to a couple of people in the show about it, but I feel like it is a very different thing than just being a practitioner. To be a public practitioner, and to be publicly known as a witch is a different life. J. Allen Cross 22:52 It is, it is. And it's one that some days, I would just love to nuke my entire Instagram and go back to not being a public figure in any capacity. Because it's something that sort of just happened by accident. I just kind of started a an Instagram and was just kind of like cool, gonna post my witchy stuff. And it turned into what it is now. And I never intended it my original. My original goal was to get 850 followers. And that was going to be amazing. Here we are now. And it is it is difficult, simply because a lot of times people think that they that they know you on a personal level. And therefore by knowing your work, or by listening to your podcasts that they know, things about you. And then they make assumptions, which is very difficult. So I've had people who have read my book and disagreed with something in it. And so for them, that means I'm a terrible human. And I'm like, we don't actually know one another. So that's something that's difficult, is I often find that people have their own ideas about me without even ever meeting me or speaking to me. And that's something that's difficult, because I do prefer to be understood. And that's part of why I write and to try and be understood as much as I can. But that's never anything you really have control over. So being a public witch is I like that I have freedom to be open about who I am. But also, it comes with stuff. Victoria Raschke 24:38 Yeah. I mean, I think commenting on that, like the parasocial aspect of social media and having a podcast and those kind of things. I think that a lot of people do understand that like celebrities that what they know as a persona. But I feel like with the intimacy of social media and the intimacy of podcasting and things like that, maybe people listen to you in the car or when they're laying in bed at night, you know, they have this very different interaction with those kinds of things that, that parasocial bond is stronger on their end, but you're still a persona. You know, that is, I think that there's more cognitive dissonance there were then with like a celebrity figure who's like, act or something. J. Allen Cross 25:24 You seem so far away, versus, you know, the podcaster that's going with you to work every morning. Victoria Raschke 25:30 Yeah, it's a weird, it's a weird thing. That's for sure. But I mean, do you have? Like, how do you navigate that? Like, do you do anything like in your practice itself to kind of navigate that? J. Allen Cross 25:44 No, I mean, you know, I always doing what I do. And being who I am, you always have to, you know, make sure that you have your protections in place, so that you're doing regular cleansings, just because all that stuff that people think and feel about you, you know, always gets sent there. But to be honest, a lot of it has just been how I frame it in my mind. Because when you put out something like a book, it's very easy to want to know what everybody thinks about it. And sometimes that's good. Sometimes that's bad. When I first started getting my book published, everyone around me who I knew who was an author told me, they're like, do not under any circumstances, read your reviews. [laughter] You're like, don't even read the good ones. They're like, don't read any of them at all. And, you know, I, I disregarded that. And came to understand why. Because the truth of the matter is, is that once you put something out there, you can never control how people respond to it. And even though the, the response to my book was overwhelmingly positive, there were a lot of people who felt the need to be a certain way I had people dedicate their entire TikToks, to hating me, all kinds of stuff, which of course, after that, they announced their own book that's coming out. So you begin to realize what it's all about, you know, going through it. So for me, a lot of it was learning that what other people think about my work is none of my business. Yeah. it's not that it doesn't matter. It's not that you know, anything like that. It's simply none of my business. So people will send me things are like, Hey, I did a review of your book on my website. And I'm like, great, not gonna read it. Because like, you know, you do that. Absolutely. You're entitled to your opinion, but it's none of my business what you think. And that's simply the best way I found to just, you know, live at this point. Victoria Raschke 27:45 Yeah. I think all new writers get that advice not to read reviews, and all new writers don't take that advice, right. It's just one of those things. But you're right. I mean, I think once we put something out into the world, whether it's fiction or nonfiction, or you know, even the podcasts like, it doesn't really belong to us anymore. J. Allen Cross 28:03 Yes, exactly. No longer mine, right. Victoria Raschke 28:06 And, you know, perception of the person, you know, Reading it or listening to it, that is the reality for them, like whatever you intended, might have gotten through. Not necessarily. J. Allen Cross 28:18 So I had people come after me for saying things that I, were not in the book at all. But it were things that they had interpreted, from what I said, based on, you know, their own personal experiences. And that was a very strange thing for me, because I'd be like, wait there, that's not in this book. I never said that. But if you take, you know, leap, one, two, and three, and you end up over here. So that was something that was interesting for me, it was the fact that you, you can be as clear as the day at least as far as you're concerned. And still, everyone's going to read something very different from what you put out, which is also part of the magic of books, too, is that people everyone is going to read something different when they read your book. So. Victoria Raschke 29:08 yeah, it was actually to another Weiser author. I think that I think that was already up that episodes already aired, but about kind of the animism of books like you know that the manuscript that you're working on has its own spirit or own, you know, presence, but then every copy of that that goes out then becomes its own thing too. J. Allen Cross 29:31 Yes. Very much so. Yeah. Victoria Raschke 29:34 It's an interesting interesting way to look at things. So when you are writing like when you're home, trying not to do the dishes. [laughter] Like what is what is like your perfect writing day what is like this is the Do you have rituals around it? Do you have like certain things that you do or you just watch people use? Absolutely not precious about it and I just write whenever. J. Allen Cross 29:55 i i do have some kind of rituals, I'm not necessarily a superstitious writer. But I do think that there are certain things that help. So for me, a playlist that matches what I'm writing is really important. Or at least can a playlist that can kind of put me into the the brain space that I need to be in for writing. So for I think it was all of American Brujeria. I wrote that I believe listening to the instrumental soundtrack to Where'd You Go, Bernadette? which is my most favorite novel. And I love what they did with the film. But I listened to a lot of instrumental soundtracks when I write. And though that one doesn't really match the theme of the book. It was excellent writing music to do that. So I do a lot of, a lot of music. And I have this old rolltop desk that I sit at when I write because it makes me feel all authorly. And something that I like to do, because I mean, honestly, mostly, I write fiction. I'm not publishing fiction, but mostly I do write fiction. So I keep a novel from a author that I really respect on the desk with me, and it kind of cycles. I write mostly horror, when it comes to fiction. And so I will have like a collection of Shirley Jackson's short stories, or, for a while it was Anne Rice's Interview with the Vampire that I had. I think my most recent one that's sitting on my desk right now is Stephen King's Lisey's Story, which is one of my most favorite books. So yeah, that I find that that helps a little bit. I feel like they're with me. Victoria Raschke 31:50 Yeah. Yeah, I do like that idea of kind of like the altar that in like a very abstract way. And this is what you're kind of bringing to this writing. Yeah, it's funny. We were talking a little bit before about Anne Rice. It's funny that that is the one of your students. I will save that information for listeners for later but Anne Rice is obviously not going to be on the show. That's not unfortunately, that is not possible. But yeah, I do. It's interesting you say about being superstitious about writing, because there are a lot of writers who are a little bit superstitious, you know, they have I only use these kinds of pencils, or, you know, I only do this time of day or whatever. I always think of speaking of Stephen King, I think it's is it he's got two books about writers and I can't remember which one this in, but I think it's the Dark Half, where he uses the Berol Black Beauty pencils. And that image has stuck with me for so long. Of like a writer, this, like so dedicated to this tool being referring to writing and I was like, you know, in the days of just typing it out in a word processing program are kind of not as romantic, I guess. J. Allen Cross 33:06 Yes. Yeah. That was something interesting, too. When I was reading Misery was the amount of writing kind of talk that went through it. Which makes sense. I mean, Paul Sheldon is writer and the main character, but I'm talking about like, the typewriter. And like, what kind it was and working with it and all that. And we don't realize that the days of typewriters were not that long ago, we when we think of typewriters in our brain, it's like, you know, Little House on the Prairie or something like that, but really was not that long ago. We're talking like the 80s. It's like, Victoria Raschke 33:36 Yeah, I was in high school in the 80s. And we still had typing class. Yeah, not keyboarding it was still typing on electric typewriters. J. Allen Cross 33:44 Yeah, I didn't I could not imagine being being a writer on a typewriter because I mess up so much. That the ability to just backspace is a boon. Thank God. Victoria Raschke 33:56 Yeah, exactly. I when I the first year, I went to college with like a Brother word processor, which tried to explain this to someone now. It was like a portable, suitcase sized word processor that had a screen that was about three by five. And that was like a huge screen, because most of them just you could see three lines at a time, when they first came out. And that was like very high tech. To have that and now, you know, like, I can't even imagine what someone would you know, like someone who's only ever worked on a computer screen would be like, what is this? J. Allen Cross 34:32 how did you work like this? Yeah, yeah, Victoria Raschke 34:35 we did. I mean, that was the thing and I mean, I know of authors. I know a few others who do always write longhand first. They don't know if you do work on like old typewriters. That's their preferred medium. And I do think you know that it is interesting, but that I was also thinking, like in context with your book about like, if you do use an old typewriter to write what're you bringin' in like what, who else has been writing on that typewriter? J. Allen Cross 35:03 Yeah, right. That's interesting. Yeah, I wonder about that as well. It could, it could help could hurt depending on, you know, who owned it before you if they had great amounts of inspiration that might, you know, rub off on it, or maybe they had a very turbulent writing career, you never know, Victoria Raschke 35:25 Or they were just doing invoices for, you know, a widget company. So, fiction, so what is do you have plans to get this fiction out in the world, or? J. Allen Cross 35:39 I hope to, we'll see, it's a very different world from the nonfiction that I've been published in, and I've been really blessed to be successful in nonfiction. But that was kind of a weird, almost accidental stopover. Even as a child, when people you know would ask me like, Okay, what is it that you want to do? I would tell them, I wanted to be a writer. And so I, I used to write as a child and continue to write growing up and all this and have I've written many terrible, terrible novels [laughter] that are on my computer and will never see the light of day. But hopefully, at some point, I will add fiction novels to my repertoire, we will see. Cross your fingers for me. Victoria Raschke 36:29 Yeah, I'll put that out there for you. I am a consummate cheerleader for people who want to get their work in the world. I just, I just want to hear people's stories. And I'm, as Mr. Gaiman has said multiple times only you can write the book you're supposed to write. So yeah. So I guess, since you haven't published fiction, I'm gonna ask you this anyway. Because I think in your fiction, how does your like your practice and your belief? Like, if you're writing horror, assume there's magical elements to it. Like, how important is it to you that that'd be realistic? Are you like, oh, no, it's fiction magic is CGI magic, it doesn't matter how realistic it is. J. Allen Cross 37:17 You know, it kind of depends on what exactly it is that I'm writing. For the most part, I do like to keep it as realistic as I can. Just because I think that that adds a little extra body to it, when it's a little bit more in depth than simply does, you know, oh, you wave your hand, or you say the funny word, or whatever it is. So I find that that adds a little bit more depth to it. But what a lot of witches don't understand is that when it comes to fiction, making sure that everything is exactly correct, magically speaking, is not very exciting. And it also takes a lot of time and a lot of explanation. And so, you know, this, your, your witch character is going to go cast a spell. And so they start by grounding themselves, and then they cast a. circle, and then it's like 30 pages later. Like, okay, we need to actually kind of chop this down. So when it comes to writing fiction, I like to incorporate as many realistic elements as I can. But I'm a writer, that's like, you know what, this is fiction. And fiction is fiction for a reason. Because people aren't here for a course in witchcraft, people are here for a story. And if I stopped to have 30 pages on casting a circle in a very correct manner, that's going to absolutely kill the story. So I, you know, where you can make it realistic. That's great. But I don't like to get hung up on it. Especially if it's something that I feel like is damaging the story. Victoria Raschke 38:56 Yeah. It's actually I've had in critique groups, people, because I have published fiction. And always there's kind of a witchy character and magical element, contemporary fantasy kind of stuff. And I've had critique groups, people say, Well, how does that work? And I'm like, do you want to know that? Because you want to know that and you have questions about it? Or do you think I need to explain that to you in the book? Right, because those are different. Yes. Very. Interesting. Well, I'm excited at the prospect of you getting fiction out in the world. And when you get that published, we'll have you back on. And we're gonna talk about your fiction book. Thank you. Oh, so I mean, with American Brujeria, and with The Witch's Guide to the Paranormal a lot of this is kind of based on your experience. I mean, I know there, there's footnoting and things like that. But do you did you feel like you really did a lot of research for either one of those books or there's really like the research kind of filled in what you needed to verify for folks. Like what was the process of kind of getting the information in there? Just as a nonfiction author, I guess. J. Allen Cross 40:02 Yeah, well, research did go into both of them, but not the research that a lot of people would expect. There's kind of this big movement right now to make a cold writing, very academic with, you know, the peer reviewed academic sources and things like that. The truth of the matter is, when it comes to magic, especially folk magic, your sources are some old lady at the gas station [laughter] that gave you a corn doll and told you it's been around three times. Like, there's not a lot of like, I'm now going to cite the Harvard Journal of Magic and Wizardry here. I mean, that doesn't really exist. So the research for the first book was not only my own experience, but I sat down with a lot of people who are Mexican American, or immigrants from Mexico, and asked them about their lives and their families. Because when it comes to folk magic, folk magic is something that really gets kind of embedded into just everyday things. And so a lot of the times, people I sit down with would be like, Oh, no, I don't know anything about folk magic. And I'd be like, hold up, just stick with me here. [laughter] And you start kind of asking about their life, and they realize how much magic is in it, and how many rituals and superstitions and things they do for good luck, or to get rid of envy or the evil eye or whatever is really just kind of all over the place. So for me, it was a lot of interviews, a lot of talking to real people, and then kind of translating that into information for the book, which was really helpful. For the second book, I did, you know, read a few books and kind of perused a few things to kind of, because I always feel that it's important that once people finish one of my books, they know where to go next. Because there's no way to really create a complete guide to anything really, I can do my best to teach you everything that I know, but after that you're going to have to go out and it's important to see other perspectives and things like that. So I did kind of pick up a few books kind of go through them, see which ones I liked. And then I added those in to the book as well. And kind of did some citing in there, just because people really like to see that these days. So I went into and made sure that those are in there. But honestly, the bulk of the research for that was 16 years of paranormal investigation and being a psychic that has spoken to these spirits, worked with these hauntings a lot of trial and error to find out why things work and what things do not work. And I was able to share some of the books that had really helped me so in particular, Mary Ann Winkowski's book When Ghosts Speak, was super impactful on me and helped me understand so much of what was going on with ghosts. So highly recommend it. Victoria Raschke 43:08 So I guess I want to ask this question, but I don't want it to be salacious and trying to figure out how to word it. But like in your investigations, I guess this is why to do it, in your investigations is there like one particular that really stands out for you? Or has kind of stuck with you like something that you just can't shake? Or like, I just think you know, like most people who are in helping professions, you know, nurses, teacher, you don't have like a student or a patient or that just doesn't go away. Like even if the situation was resolved. I imagine that's kind of true for you. So is there something like that? J. Allen Cross 43:46 A little bit, I've had, I've had several that have stuck with me. I've come across religious cults of Earthbound spirits that are kind of doomsday hiding in places afraid to move on through the light. I've come across spirits that have made friends with spiders in basements and don't want to leave them. All kinds of things. One that I do wonder about quite often. We got a chance to investigate the Montgomery House in Kalama, Washington. And it's, it was open for investigations for a while and then it changed hands. It became a private residence. And then they decided to open it up to investigations again. And so one of my friends, their team was were the first people to get in, once they had reopened and they asked me to go with them. And so I did. And while we were there, one of the first spirits that we met was a woman named Ruth. And she was taking nobody's crap. She was, as soon as we walked in, she was like, at the top of the stairs, like, who are you? What are you doing here. And I got to know her really well on that investigation. And she, we found out kind of through. I was there were several other mediums. We kind of figured out through working with her, and then through going online and actually looking this person up, that they had ran a B&B out of the house. And what's so funny is in death, she was still running a B&B for spirits out of the home. So like, there were so many spirits in that house, because they all needed a place to stay. And so they all kind of had like their own stories, but she was in charge and kind of keeping everything together. And there were several spirits in the house that I was like, not super excited about, where I was like, you know, because there's like kids in the house and stuff. And I'm like, I don't know, how comfortable I feel with a spirit being here. And she's and she made it very clear. She's like, No, I keep everybody here in line. And if they don't, then they have to leave, like, and they were all kind of a little bit afraid. So I do sometimes wonder about Ruth and how she's doing. And you know how all of that is going for the family that's there right now aren't bothered by the haunting much and they kind of the, the, it's, it's kind of something that they've grown familiar with. It's kind of like having friends in the house a little bit. So nobody seems bothered. And that's great. But I do sometimes wonder how Ruth is doing. Victoria Raschke 46:38 You write about that in the book too, in that section. It was just like, so the resolution for that is like, no, she's in charge. You're fine. I mean, there's not really the resolution isn't really they need to leave. It's, this is what's going on. J. Allen Cross 46:55 Yeah. So and you know, sometimes, you know, if they want to leave, I'm happy to help them do that. And sometimes you come across earthbound spirits, and they're like, no, like, I have a job. I'm fulfilling a purpose over here. Especially for something like that, you know, having community on the other side is really important. I can't imagine being dead and alone. You know, like, that sounds terrible. So. Victoria Raschke 47:21 I, one of the things I wanted to ask you about in the book, and again, this is not writing this is what you do I guess? But um, you talked about the difference between like imprinted hauntings like that the time loop kind of thing, which I think gets used a lot in popular media. I mean, like you said, the the widow's walk kind of thing is is very trope-y. But also like, it's a story that's everywhere has one pretty much there's water, there's a widow's walk story. And, and the difference between like earthbound spirits, and I was just thinking, you know, like, the I guess the, that idea that if it's an earthbound spirit, it would fade over time. But these time loops can last, it seems like from what you're saying, longer. So it makes me like the really roundabout way to get to this. But I was just thinking about the like, the nugget of truth in folklore, there's always like a negative truth. Right. And those timely things seem to feed that maybe even more than other kinds of hauntings, it seems. J. Allen Cross 48:31 In what way? Victoria Raschke 48:32 In that they would be more persistent over time. J. Allen Cross 48:35 All right. Oh, yeah. That would make sense. Yeah, Victoria Raschke 48:39 I think about things like, especially in Europe, what do you think, like, Anne Boleyn still haunting? The Tower of London? Well, you know, in theory, she should have moved on by now. Is it a time loop kind of thing instead? So yeah, it's just that, I guess it is kind of writer's brain, like how does that work? Like, how do you? How do you pick that apart? And think about, like, you know, what is the story? I guess? What is the story really? J. Allen Cross 49:05 Right. And I do love that because it is kind of these weird snapshots, you know, of people's lives and of their story. And it does, it does beg the question, you know, what happened here? Why did you make this walk so many times that it became imprinted on the space or what was happening in you at that time that put out so much energy that it scorched, you know, this moment into this place? It does. It does make you wonder. Yeah. Victoria Raschke 49:36 So being kind of in public for what you do and writing these books and people I guess, assume also know that you do paranormal investigation. Do you get a lot of random people coming up to you with their ghost stories? J. Allen Cross 49:48 Oh, yes. I do get that. Which is, which is great because it's so funny when they do it because you can tell a lot of the time or, or I'll be in social situations where people will ask what I do. And if I'm feeling adventurous that day, [laughter] and I tell them the real answer, they'll often immediately launch into some sort of story. And sometimes they're bananas. I've had complete strangers be like, Oh, interesting. I was abducted by aliens at this point. And I'm like, oh, cool, just met you, what was your name? [laughter] But you can also tell the reason why they have that reaction is because they've had something in them like this story, this experience, that they haven't had a safe person to tell about. And as soon as they understand that you're a safe person, that story can come out for the first time. And sometimes I, sometimes you also wonder if they're, if they're kind of like in control of it, because sometimes they do kind of just like, you can see them kind of word vomited out, like this thing happened to me at one point, and I was this age and this thing, and I saw this stuff and like, so I, I think that that's number one, very neat that they've identified me as a safe person that they can share that with that they often haven't told anyone else. And also that they're getting that opportunity to actually not only tell the story to somebody, but tell that story to somebody that goes like, oh, yeah, I've seen something similar to that. Or I understand what that might, must be like for you. Because I've you know, had a similar experience or something like that. So it can be very validating for them and very healing for them. And you can kind of see them too, after they're done telling you. They kind of have this like, oh, like, Oh, I didn't even know that that was in there, like struggling to get out. But once it does it, I think it changes something for people. And I think that's important. Victoria Raschke 51:37 Yeah, I know, it seems like a really good attitude, like I know, like, like a doctor at a party might get sick of people saying, Hey, can you look at this mole? Right? But yeah, that seems like a better way to kind of absorb those stories without, you know, like having to give advice, or you're just a place where they can land the story. And maybe that's all they needed. J. Allen Cross 52:01 Yeah, you can hope sometimes it's not all at which point it does become the doctor at the at the party, which I do run into that. And it can sometimes be hard to make friends doing what I do, because people get interested in knowing you based on you know what it is that you do, and then that entire friendship just turns into them texting you every time something creaks in their house or something. And it's like, cool, but like, do you actually, you know, know what my hobbies are outside of that? You know. Victoria Raschke 52:35 It's gonna be weird. Yeah. Yeah. Well, friendships as adults, I think are interesting. And, yeah, it's much more difficult than when you're younger. But I have so many questions for you that are not that writing. And I just don't want to pepper you with those. I am sure you will talk about a lot of this stuff with other folks. But one of the things that really stood out to me in the book is the idea that entities do not have to be from that place. And they can come from other places nearby, or they just kind of land there on the you know, the spirit superhighway, or whatever. Because I was thinking a lot about, you know, especially on the West Coast, like so much of the infrastructure is new compared to, you know, the East Coast and Europe. And, like, a lot of the material built culture is new. But it's not. This was not an uninhabited place. It was not uninhabited before that. So just this idea of, of people being haunted in new buildings, I think is really interesting. And not something that I think a lot of people think about, they always think about, like you said, the old abandoned asylum or prison, you know, not like the apartment complex on Vine and Third, or whatever, J. Allen Cross 52:35 You'd be shocked at the number of houses or, you know, homes that we get called to, that are in these beautiful new developments. Like just like, you know, you just drive in, and it's like, for some reason, just over that area, the sun is shining. Thank you, you know, like, these gorgeous housing developments that with all this new construction, and you go in and you're like, yeah, you definitely have a haunting, like, a shocking amount of them are in these new houses. And I think part of it is the fact that you have disturbed land, which can definitely be a part of it. But also, a lot of these new construction are designed with like monetary value in mind and not like proper energetic flow. So something I talked about in the book is feng shui and why it's important to understand kind of the movement of energy through your home. Because a lot of these houses have really terrible circulation, essentially and so it causes these pools of energy that are just the perfect habitat for entities and spirits to kind of make a home in. And so that's something that's difficult. And it's not something that can always be fixed. Because that's an architecture issue like I can, you know, you can put a potted plant here, you can put a mobile or a light or something over here, or you can paint this a different color. But, you know, there's only so much you can do when it when it comes to that. Victoria Raschke 55:33 I mean, it there is kind of like, the architectural equivalent of word vomit in a lot of those houses, which I guess doesn't work for spirits, either. J. Allen Cross 55:42 Yeah, it's a lot of like, well, we designed this house this way so that we can fit as many as we can, in this amount of you know, this many acres, or however much the development is. not so much, you know, what's, what's the best actual flow? Victoria Raschke 55:58 It kind of gives a whole new dimension to what is the McMansions from Hell. [laughter] Speaking of social media, like she's doing quite well. Oh, so I want to give you an opportunity to tell folks where to find you. And let folks know what's coming up for you. This will air later in the fall. So think about that, I guess, with classes or anything? And then we'll go on to our last question, which is a tiny game of chance. J. Allen Cross 56:27 Oh, yeah. So you can definitely find me on Instagram, I am at Oregon underscore Wood underscore Witch so it's Oregon, which are the little underscores in between, take a second look at any of them that you find. Because there are many people out there attempting to be me. My best advice is, if you're on someone's account, scroll down a little bit, because I found that a lot of these scammers have like three or four lines that are my pictures. And then underneath that they're like a completely different person or completely different account. And I'm like, That's not me. So definitely take a look at it. I am @Oregon woodwitch. you can find my podcast invoking witchcraft on Instagram, as well. Through my personal page, I have a link in my bio, where you can find my books where you can book services with me, I do spiritual coaching, I do readings, I do spell work, all that stuff. So you can find that there and you can find my books, wherever books are sold. Victoria Raschke 57:28 Excellent. And we will put all that in the show notes so people can find it easier. Thank you. And so the last question, which, at some point, I have to stop saying this was things we're not supposed to talk about, because the whole podcast is kind of that. So depending on what I roll, I will ask you a question tangental to your writing, or the topic of the book, so not just out of left field, about death, sex, religion, politics or money. And if I roll a six, you get to pick which one you want. [sound of die on the table] Five. Money. Oh, interesting. Okay. So you say in the book that your team does not charge for doing investigations and resolutions, donation is possible. So I guess, can you talk a little bit more about how you all made that decision and maybe give advice for people to who need to seek services locally to avoid being fleeced by charlatans? J. Allen Cross 58:28 Yep, yes, I guess. So that was something so I was doing paranormal investigation on my own for a long time, and I was doing it for free. That was something that was very important to me. I never liked the idea that, you know, a family could be huddled together in their living room sleeping all together for safety. And I'd go well, I could help. but you can't pay me so I'm not gonna. like that that never sat right with me. So I never charged for it. And then when I joined the team I'm on now they already had a roll about doing it for free. This is a volunteer thing that we were all doing. And if people wanted to donate they could and that went to things for the team like equipment, keeping our website up, you know at one point we got hoodies which was really cool on that had our, you know our name on them. So that was that was a value that I really liked. And joining this team, it was nice to find people who felt the same way that I did. If you're going to have a paranormal investigation or someone come in and help. I, There's a few things that are red flags. If someone wants hundreds of dollars to come and investigate your house, let alone fix it. But just to investigate it. You have to remember too that a lot of the times when you're letting paranormal investigators into You're haunted home, you're actually doing them a bit of a favor, you know? Because it's like, Hey, this is something you study. So would you like to utilize my home to study that, like, you know, it's often a favor. If they're going to charge you, it should seem reasonable. And it should be something that is predetermined ahead of time that everyone is okay with. something that you may run into, And this is a big red flag, because like when they want a bunch of money up front, and then later come back to you and say, Oh, well, actually, we need more money. Because what we found is very dangerous. It's going to require these kinds of special tools or things like that, that's an immediate red flag of somebody. And that's something too, that we see when it comes to like scammers for spell casting, people be like, Oh, I picked up the energy from your photo, you have a dark curse upon you. So I need to break it for $500. And then you give them $500 and two weeks later, they're like, oh, I need you to send me $800 Because this is much more difficult than I thought it was going to be. And if I stop now, you will die. So you have to send me the $800. So if you start running into that, be concerned. And also be very concerned if they tell you or try to impress upon you that they are the only ones that can fix this. That's one that I run into as well, where I've come across people who are like, well, actually, I am special, and I have this ability that nobody else has. So you need to pay me and I rarely find that that's the case. Victoria Raschke 1:01:33 I think the investigation part, that really makes sense that you shouldn't they want to do that, you know, investigators want to go to places where there might be activity or something going on. So why would you, why would they charge you hundreds of dollars for that? I hadn't quite thought about it that way. But that totally makes sense. J. Allen Cross 1:01:53 Yeah, there are some days where I'm like, trying to get something out of somebody's basement that's trying to like rip my head off. And I'm like, you know, I should probably charge for this. But some days you're like, Oh, God, but... Victoria Raschke 1:02:07 Well, no wonder to link. I don't know that this is the reason not to charge. But it does seem like people will be more likely to believe that what you're trying to do, be less skeptical? Yes. If you're not trying to make money off of it, I guess. J. Allen Cross 1:02:25 Yeah. Well, that's something too like in the book, I have a section near the end about the different kinds of clients that you're going to run into. And one of them that's very prominent that you're gonna run into over and over again, is the family skeptic, who's often not always but often the oldest male in the household. And something that they're really worried about, and something that they have their eye on a lot is the money portion, are we being charged for this? you know, is am I gonna get a bill? And once they find out that you're not charging them, and they spend enough time with you that you don't, then suddenly begin charging them you know that that story doesn't change, then they begin to relax a lot more and actually take you seriously and begin to feel that you're legitimate. So I feel like that's really important. Victoria Raschke 1:03:14 Yeah, no, that totally makes sense to you. I, that part was amusing to me, because I'm like, you know, as, as witchy, as I think I am. I'm like, there's a little skeptical heart in there, too. J. Allen Cross 1:03:25 Which is important. Victoria Raschke 1:03:27 I mean, I think you have to, you know, it's not skepticism, in and of itself does not negate magical or paranormal things. It just kind of keeps you safe, I think from people who would want to do harm, like you said, J. Allen Cross 1:03:43 exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Victoria Raschke 1:03:47 Oh, well, thank you so much for being on the show and for sharing your work and letting us know that you know, and there could be fiction in the offing as well. J. Allen Cross 1:03:56 Right, if you're a literary agent, slide into my DMs please Victoria Raschke 1:04:00 Listen up. All right. Well, thank you so much. And hopefully, you know, next book, we'll have you back on and we'll talk more witchy writing stuff. It'd be great. J. Allen Cross 1:04:07 That would be wonderful. Well, I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day. Victoria Raschke 1:04:10 Thanks, you too. [ambient music plays] WitchLit is a production of 1000Volt Press and is edited by keifel agostini. Our music is Voices by Aleksander Senekar. You can support our work at kofi.com/witchlitpodcast. And if you'd like to submit your own death, sex, religion, politics, or money questions, or have questions or comments about the show, you can send an email to Victoria@witchlitpod.com And please be sure to let us know if we can use your name on the show. Transcripts and all our previous episodes are available at witchlitpod.com And you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter @witchlitpod. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and consider giving us a rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts, it helps other witches find the show. Thanks for listening and for reading witchy. Transcribed by https://otter.ai