Victoria Raschke 0:00 Welcome to Season Two of WitchLit, a space to talk about the craft of writing and writing the craft. I'm your host Victoria Raschke author, publisher, witch, and nosy Scorpio. Christine Grace is a longtime teacher of the craft and a founder of the Forest Edge Tradition of witchcraft. She is the cohost of Betwixt and Between podcast and author of The Witch at the Forest's Edge: 13 keys to modern traditional witchcraft. She has graduate degrees in theology and mental health counseling from Vanderbilt University. And Christine currently lives, homesteads, and homeschools in the woods with her partnerand witchlettes. Christine Grace, welcome to WitchLit! Christine Grace 0:43 {laughter] Thank you for having me. I am so charmed to be here. Victoria Raschke 0:49 I am excited to have you on the show. We were chatting a little bit before. And I already told you that um, just feels like a special treat to have you on and I always do a disclaimer if I know the person I'm interviewing. [laughter] Christine and I do know each other. I have, actually she has been a personal teacher for me and I am a dedicant in the tradition that she is the founder of so. Christine Grace 1:12 Yeah, it's it's really extra fun to talk to you. The way I put it was I'm happy to talk to you. That's exciting. Also a podcast. Yes. Just works out altogether. Victoria Raschke 1:22 Oh, cool. So our first question for everybody I say our like I have a mouse in my pocket. My husband does the editing, to it is hard walk by? Yes. Do you have a cat and my husband does the editing. So I think of it is our podcast in a lot of ways. So why write? Christine Grace 1:40 Why indeed? Like, why write anything? Or like why write this book? Victoria Raschke 1:45 Um. Either? Christine Grace 1:48 Um, well, I think why write this book is much easier to answer. So I wouldn't pretend that's what you meant. Well, because it had to get done. And I was the person who did it. Um, there was a moment there where I thought it might be a more collaborative effort. And I might be kind of the editor of kind, of kind of more of an edited compilation of materials with like multiple contributors. But that turned out not to be feasible. So I wrote it because I could and I have some background in writing, and it needed to be written for, just for my own, you know, our own tradition, and for our apprentices and um yeah. Victoria Raschke 2:46 So and I know a little bit about that story, because we were actually talking much more frequently before the COVID times and all the things I started writing. So what was the actual journey to get it published? Look, how did that look? Because I know you had talked about maybe publishing it yourself. And there, there had been some conversation around that. So what did getting published actually look like for you? Christine Grace 3:07 Yeah, well, that was kind of a like, that was I knew that the books at the time getting published is the goal. When you start writing a book. It was not actually the goal for me, I mean, getting it making it in a form that's accessible to people was the goal. But people being a very small number of people who are affiliated with The Forest's Edge at the time. When I started writing that that was the plan. And so, you know, maybe some kind of self publishing platform, or literally even like, maybe like a PDF, or I don't even know what like the end result was gonna look like, but having it traditionally published, you know, by one of the kind of pagan publishing companies that we all are familiar with was not a goal. Because I didn't, I didn't see it as something that had a broad audience. I saw it as a very specific and kind of unusual form of witchcraft, which, in the interim, it's taken so many years to do this, that in the intervening years, that form witchcraft is no longer bizarre, and, like, niche anymore, so. So eventually, I kind of got to the point where I had spent years writing this book, and I was almost done. And I talked to the Voices in our tradition, who are kind of the Council of Elders, I guess you could call it about kind of the process and where I was with it, and how close I was to being done with it. And that I wasn't really sure kind of where to go from there. And the Voices were like, Well, I think what you do next is you get it published. And I had to kind of sit with that for a minute. And then I decided to at least try and I figured, well, you know, it's not like so like it's a problem if it doesn't work out. Because I already planned to not, so. So if I'm just rejected everywhere, and then I go back to my original plan of just having a way to kind of privately, give it to people, then that's, that'll be fine. And so, so fortunately, one of our Voices had already had really just very recently been through kind of the publishing process. And so he was really able to clue me in on how that works in the very specific industry of like, pagany witchy publishing, which is kind of different than how it works in, you know, like if you're publishing a novel or something like that. And so I just submitted the proposal to one publishing company, and they wanted some chapters. So I sent some chapters, and then they weren't able to get back to me very quickly, because by that point, COVID was happening. And so people's like, boards were not meeting that quickly. And it was just, it was a strange kind of time to be trying to publish a book. And so I said, Hey, so I'm going to, I'm going to send it to the other big pagan publishing company also, so I did that. And then, almost simultaneously, they both came back with off offers. And so I picked one, and there we go, I got to publish a book for real. [laughter] Victoria Raschke 6:41 It's exciting. And it's completely, I would imagine, it is a completely different path to publishing then most people take to go, you know, to go into writing the book with this idea that it might not even be published, publicly, I guess. Christine Grace 6:55 Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's, I think it's very different in a lot of ways. And one is that I never really anticipated it having a broad appeal, because at the time, such, like, openly animist very folk very, very non-Wiccan witchcraft was just not, not like a huge thing. So I just, I couldn't even really conceive of there being a lot of people [laughter] would want to read it. And, and then the other thing that made it quite different was that it was not exactly that I was starting from zero because, of course, our tradition had already existed for many fine years. And so the other teachers and I were already working from materials. So that was kind of a blessing and a curse. [laughter] The fact that I had some things to be looking at, in reference to what I wanted to write fresh. But, you know, I think that could be quite different than if I had just decided, you know, here's a subject I'm interested in. And I would like to publish a book on this subject. So now I'm going to sit down and do some research and then start writing. Victoria Raschke 8:12 So once the book got accepted, and you chose Weiser to publish with, did they have a lot of input into what you had already done, since you had come to it with this, like, this? Is our our tradition, did they kind of go,"Yes. But we need you to do these things?" Christine Grace 8:31 No. By the time I submitted it to publishing companies, I had taken out anything that I felt was not something I wanted to share with the general public. Obviously, I understood that publishing it meant that it would not just be like for our own tradition, members, and so I, yeah, so I had already done that shift. They did ask for one thing, and it was really big thing. I had never tried to estimate how many words an incredibly long document like that was going to be, and I estimated wrong. And so they thought it was going to be a fairly short book, but when it was done, it wasn't. And they were like, Well, honestly, I we really like the idea of this fairly, like short, easy to read book. So I had to cut out 40,000 words. [Victoria gasps] Victoria Raschke 9:35 Wow. That's like a whole book. I mean, that's another book. I mean, a short book, but still, another book. Wow. Christine Grace 9:43 Yeah. So I think some of the things that were lost from the book, I'm bummed about some of the things that were lost from the book, honestly, I, I love the constraints of tight editing. When I was an undergrad. I did a lot of work with poetry and I love to constrain of like, only like the most important words. And I kind of enjoyed putting myself in that position when I was writing a lot for grad school. So in a way, there's some pleasure that I take and being like, "How can I convey this idea in the minimum number of words?" On the other hand, there, in order to not like, lose essential content for understanding, I had to lose things like spells. Yes, it's a book about witchcraft, no spells in it. Because I had to take them out. [laughter] Victoria Raschke 10:32 I mean, we did you talk about spellcraft, in like a more [Christine interjects: absolutely] philosophical way about it. Christine Grace 10:38 Yeah. [crosstalk] Which, you know, I hope, I hope that it kind of sets up a framework for crafting your own spells and for drawing on your own folkloric influences, and your own, like life experiences and needs, and creating spellwork that is true to like where you are, and your specific craft. Nonetheless, people do like to have spells in witchcraft books, and I did not provide in the end. Victoria Raschke 11:06 I mean, there are some, like ritual outlines and like framesworks for things that I think, can be really helpful. The reading it what what I mean, because I had read the training materials that this was based on, like, yeah, that looked very familiar. But the thing that I bet way from reading it was that it was kind of like, if I had just met you for coffee multiple times. And you're like, Victoria, this is how this tradition works. It was like, it was very conversational in that way. And I was like, that's a really interesting approach to it. Because I do think for like a mass appeal. I mean, as much as mass is in our niche of world Christine Grace 11:47 I know. So tiny. Victoria Raschke 11:50 like, it still feels very specific to what you want to talk about. But it is kind of couched in this like very, I guess open like, here's, here's my thoughts on these things based on how I practice in this tradition. And you can take what you want from it like it, none of it feels prescriptive. But it does feel descriptive, I guess, if that makes sense. Christine Grace 12:17 Well, I'm thrilled to hear that I'm, I'm so glad that comes through. That's absolutely intentional. And, you know, I know, you know, this so I'm not really telling this to you. But that's kind of how we tend to roll as a tradition, there's a lot of flexibility, a lot of openness, and a lot of expectation kind of placed on the person to figure out your specifics, your sense of spiritual ancestry and your like, local bio region. And so, so because this really is kind of coming out of years of teaching, I think it quite reasonably reflects that, that approach to teaching. And I wanted to find some ways to distill some things that I've learned from teaching, because I've gotten so much out of the experience of teaching and making sure that some of the things I might say to an apprentice, like in person can come through as much as I can manage in book form, as far as having kind of developed an awareness of ways that different people work in different things that will work for different people and kind of offering some ideas that um that I that I've honestly gotten from experience. So I hope it reflects that. Victoria Raschke 13:39 I think so. I think it does, um, one of the things I think because it's come out of this experience of teaching, like each chapter for folks who read it will see that each chapter has a set of questions at the end to reflect on and then some practice suggestions, but I think that it's almost. It's not textbook-y though, like it's kind of an opportunity, it reminded me like I almost wanted there to be blank pages in between each chapter, [Christin interjects: I thought about it][crosstalk] like, so like, you could use it. But I know that increases like print cost and all that good stuff, but I was like, oh, this like a Workbook format would almost be really amazing for this kind of book too. So Christine Grace 14:21 That was the original plan. Like original original like way before the actual publishing plan. There was a period of time where I was kind of thinking that it would be more of a workbook format and and also like a little bit more textbook-y like I if you remember textbooks as I do, sometimes there are kind of little like side blurbs. So there's like the main text but then there's kind of these little like, pull quotes almost like I don't know a little colored boxes or whatever along the side. And there were originally going to be some of those things giving, like very specific examples of certain things. And originally, I'd hoped for those very specific examples to actually come from people who are not me, like, mostly not me, in order to get some, like other tradition voices into the text, and to see kind of a diversity of practice within these kind of overall ideas. But then it became a published book [laughter] and space became a consideration, you know, all of that stuff. Victoria Raschke 15:36 Yeah. And contributors are great to you. But it's, it's more of a challenge to wrangle on that, too. So you have these 40,000 words that you cut from this book. And so you have that material separately. So what is writing look like for you now? Like, are you, is writing part of your day to day, I mean, I know you're homeschooling and doing a lot of stuff. So writing is one of those things that takes, takes time away, because you can't really do it and like make dinner at the same time. Kind of thing. Sorry, are you currently writing? Christine Grace 16:13 Yes, but it has nothing to do with witchcraft. [Laughter] I'm writing a business plan. But there are kind of the nucleus of a couple other books in the works, but it's just not super my focus right now. This particular book needed to happen at this particular time. And so I was often, I would often find myself like holding a baby and typing with the other hand. And that was kind of an interesting experience, however, like, there are some other aspects of my life that need to be given top priority. And, you know, when I got to the end of this writing process, there were a lot of times where I was shifting a lot to the rest of my family, so that I could have time to make deadlines. And I think I'm a few years yet away from a time where I'm super comfortable going back to that level of a place. Because, yeah, just where I'm at right now. Victoria Raschke 17:25 No, I, I completely understand. I mean, I did poetry in grad school, and basically took 20 years off writing, or 18 years off writing to raise my kiddo. So yeah, I mean, I kind of feel that I didn't really get back to it until he graduated. So yeah, I don't know, I don't recommend waiting that long. Like he was a little more self contained in high school, I think it was just a mental thing for me to take a longer break. So I completely understand. [Laughter] So when you do right, what do you do get to write or when you're working on this book? Do you have like rituals around your writing? Christine Grace 18:02 [crosstalk] Or have rituals? Yeah. So do you mean like, kind of like the day to day rituals? Like I'm going to sit down right now. And so what do I do? Victoria Raschke 18:14 Yeah. Christine Grace 18:16 Okay. So, the cut those kind of day to day, things are usually really simple for me unless I'm having some kind of problem. But normally, it's kind of like light a candle, maybe some incense, maybe a little smoke cleansing bundle. And just kind of real quick kind of get into, kind of shift gears from mom and teacher and blah, blah, whatever to now I'm kind of going into this like, world of words and expression. But then I see books also as kind of having a spirit of their own. And so like, kind of beyond those kind of day to day, kind of consciousness changes for me. Sometimes I actually do also work with kind of the developing spirit of the book more directly. Victoria Raschke 19:16 Yeah, I mean, as it animist like that, like almost has to be part of the work of writing this kind of book, I would think. [Christin interjects: Yes] Yeah. So do you have like, a perfect writing day or perfect writing setup for you? Like where things are just easier? Like, I don't know, kind of weather, temperature, like those kind of things? [laughter] Christine Grace 19:38 Oh, well, I think it's better when it's not too nice outside. Because if it's just a real delight outside, then I would just rather be outside. So if the spring ephemerals are blooming, I don't know that I'm excited about writing, because or at although I do occasionally bring like a tablet into the woods with me. And like I'll kind of set the kids up were like the one who doesn't love doing things on paper so much is like kind of building a fort or bridge over a creek or something. And then the one who does like to write and draw is like doing her own writing and drawing, and then I'm typing on my little foldy tablety thingy. But that's not a super productive way for me to work. Definitely being like alone in the room that where I do writing and where my main altar also is. A rainy day is just a real delight, although not like scary tornado rain, because we get a lot of that here. So if I'm, like, nervously awaiting the possibility of running down to the basement, not so much fun, but if it's regular rain, I love it. But I love that weather anyway. So Victoria Raschke 21:00 I do feel like rain is like, for some reason for me, too, is very creative weather and like in California, like I could probably count the number of days. We've lived here. So yeah, it's been a bit of an adjustment to get used to that. I don't miss the tornado weather. And there's really not such a thing as earthquake weather as far as I know. [laughter] Yeah. So really, it's just like, I really wish it rained more. And I'm not I'm not alone in that. I'm sure. I think everybody wishes it would rain more right now, but probably not for the same reasons. I mean, I would like it to end the drought. But I'd also like it for creative purposes. Christine Grace 21:37 Yeah, I remember feeling that way when I lived in California, too. Victoria Raschke 21:40 So what do you think? Like, because you had the kind of goal you had with this book? What do you think the biggest challenge in writing it was? Christine Grace 21:51 Um, I mean, honestly, it was just probably the time and energy to do it. Because now my kids are a little bit older. And so it is possible for me to say, I am busy for the next hour. Like, come get me if there's an actual problem. But like, Mom, I'm bored. Mom, can I have a snack, we're not doing that for the next hour? That's, that's a possibility now. But during the time that I was writing the book, that was not a possibility. Because they were just too young to even. And they're fairly chill now, but anyway. So just, just literally finding time when I am awake, and they are not was very difficult or, like trying to occupy them so I could write a few words. It was just, it was bananas. So So honestly, that's not like super about writing, I guess. But just literally finding the time to do it was the hardest part. Victoria Raschke 23:07 I think it is about writing. I mean, I think it's one of the things, especially so many of the writers I know personally are women and either they have grown kids now or they have younger children. And I mean, it's the same conversation. It's like how do you you know, especially if they have a full time job on top of raising children. It's like were in that, you know, 20 minutes in the morning am I gonna get a novel finished or whatever? So I think it's a combination for a lot of writers. Christine Grace 23:38 Yeah, it's, it's a tough one. I think most adults, parents or otherwise perhaps have a lot going on. And most of us are not writing as our like, or at least not writing the things we enjoy writing as our full time profession. So Victoria Raschke 24:02 What was the best thing about writing a book? Other than getting it finished? I would imagine. [laughter] Christine Grace 24:08 Yeah. Well, I guess I, I really enjoy writing. Like I just kind of enjoy the process of having kind of unformed ideas floating around and then putting them on paper and then being like, okay, how can I do that better, and making it better until I finally read it? And I'm like, yep, that that conveys both the message and the tone that I wanted. I like I just find that process, pretty satisfying. So I like that. And then, I also really enjoyed sending like draft chapters to people and getting their feedback and then integrating that I found that really interesting. And, you know, one thing that I think, is was difficult for me when my kids were younger. And it still can be, but especially when they were younger and just required more like physical care, and less kind of like intellectual care. Like now that I'm teaching them, there's more for me to do kind of brain wise. But when I was writing, they were so little that a lot of my care for them was very, kind of practical and hands on. And just kind of exercising my brain in that particular way was just sort of a delight, like, like stretching a muscle that's been like a little cramped from not moving much for a while or something. Victoria Raschke 25:48 Yeah, that's, that makes sense too, just, especially like, you know, when you're home all the time with littles too, it's like you just talking to a grown up. And writing is kind of like, you know, that kind of same outlet, like your brain is like making full sentences and not single words. [laughter] Yeah, whatever your communication is, with, you know, tiny people. No, that that also makes sense. Um, so, in working on the book, did you find that kind of like, I guess, describing your practice and the traditions practice? Did you find that it changed anything or deepened anything in your practice while you were writing? Christine Grace 26:35 Um ... I don't know, it's kind of hard to say, because I wrote over such a long period of time, that I'm not sure I can say my practice deepened and changed because I was writing or just because, like, years passed. And I think, you know, if you're having like an active practice of witchcraft, it is going to deepen and change over the course of years. So, yes, but I'm not sure to what degree the writing itself is what created that. Victoria Raschke 27:13 There just kind of happened, because how long actually did it take you to write the book? Christine Grace 27:20 Like, most of my daughter's life, and she just turned six. [Victoria interjects: wow] So. Victoria Raschke 27:30 Yep. Pretty good. That's a pretty good run for a book. And to have, you know, an extra 40,000 words that didn't make it in there, either. [laughter] Christine Grace 27:38 Right? Right. Yeah. And I'm definitely counting the time that I spent, you know, editing out those 40,000 words is writing time, because, at least for me, the editing is such an important part of the writing and never comes out the first time exactly the way I want it Victoria Raschke 27:55 to be. In the end. If someone does that, I really want to talk to them and meet them. Like I have yet to meet a writer who's like, No, I just do it. And don't ever look at it again. Like how? Christine Grace 28:04 well I met writers like that. Victoria Raschke 28:08 You said that with your eyebrows raise, but you no one can see, but me. [laughter] I think I know what that means. Thank you. So I guess kind of in that room, like, what do you think is the best advice you've got about writing? I mean, 'cause you've written academically in grad school. And you've written this book, which isn't academic, per se, but it's definitely I guess, didactic in that way. So what, what do you think is the best writing advice you've gotten about that kind of writing? Christine Grace 28:43 Um, advice? Well. I'm not sure this is exactly advice. But, But I think I mentioned this before. Writing poetry, I think is great training for writing other things. Because if you can convey something complicated, in a short amount of words, obviously the style of writing a paper, for whatever or for a book is different, a different style, but still, to be able to take something very complicated, and perhaps kind of profound, and figure out how to say that in a small number of words, that that kind of like whittling down skill, I think takes, takes time. But is, is like the core skill like when I read writing that set spends too many words, saying something that could have been said in a shorter amount of words. I understand why because it's so difficult, but I also wish they had whittled it down a little. So so I think like, you know, don't be afraid of the whittling process. Like the fact that you wrote a word doesn't mean it's now sacred and cannot be changed. The idea might be sacred, but the words can be cut and modified. And for some reason, like the the actual writing advice that's jumps out is a teacher in undergrad who said to me, it doesn't matter that you're good at it, it matters if you do it every day. And I totally did not write this book by doing it every day, because I couldn't. Which is kind of funny advice that I'm like, that's pretty good advice. Didn't do it. [laughter] Victoria Raschke 30:45 Yeah. I mean, I think you know, there are those kind of truisms like, oh, you know, writers, a person who writes, then if you want to be a writer, you need to write every day. And I'm like, those are great ideas. I mean, I do think a writer is a person who writes, you don't have to be published, you know, you don't have to do any of that to be a writer. But I think writing the day did not involve 21st century life in the middle of, you know, climate crisis, political upheaval, wars, and pandemics. I just don't think that's a realistic thing for anybody. Christine Grace 31:15 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I do know that, you know, a lot of people set quite stringent goals for themselves in terms of writing. So I, I really can appreciate that, although I do not. [laughter] Victoria Raschke 31:35 I always try. And when, you know, when people ask me writing advice, like I like a I'm like a, I'm not A writing sage and B, you know, right, when you can write if you if you can't, you know, something's going to burn down. Because you need to go be alone for an hour and write then maybe don't let it burn down. Write it later, you know. So, I think it's, I think a lot of people do get stuck in this idea that if I'm not doing it every day, then I'm not really a writer. And I'm like, No, that's not true. Christine Grace 32:03 I don't think that's how a lot of books get written. There's not many people who really can write every day. Victoria Raschke 32:09 No, I mean, I've read, you know, read a lot about writers and read a lot of writing advice over the years. And, you know, like, there are people who write 500 words a day, and they're done. It doesn't matter if it takes them all day, or it takes them an hour and a half, or 15 minutes, or whatever, you know, and their their goal is 500 words a day, and they're done. And they can produce 30 books over their lifetime. You know, that's great. And then there are people who like, No, I write eight hours a day, however, many words are on the page. That's what I'm done. And then like, so for me, there would be days where there'd be like, 10 words [Laughter] after eight hours, saying, like, I got my 10 words in today just took me eight hours to it. It's an, it's an interesting, I just like, I guess, in many ways, like witchcraft. I feel the same way about witchcraft. I feel that writing. Like no one has all the answers. Christine Grace 33:02 Yeah, sure. That's true about witchcraft, writing, or any probably like, everything. Victoria Raschke 33:07 Yeah. Like, no one has all the answers, and there's not one way to do it. So you said there might be a couple other ideas floating around up there? Can you talk about this at all? Or do you want to talk about this at all? Christine Grace 33:21 sure. One is kind of a pagan parenting book. And the other one that I think will come later is about trauma and ritual. Victoria Raschke 33:37 Wow. Both of those sound like in depth projects, I think that probably both have a lot of research behind them. A very different kind of book than, than this one. They both sound much more research heavy. Christine Grace 33:54 The second one is very research heavy. The first one, you know, probably less so. Because I'm not necessarily like trying to trace the history of pagan parenting or anything. But yeah, we'll see when I get around to it. My kids have to be a little bit older, I think. Victoria Raschke 34:15 Yeah. Well, I think the pagan parenting book, I mean, there are a few of those floating around, but I do think, because so many people approach it differently. I think that would be an added bonus for people looking for that kind of work. And I really [crosstalk] Christine Grace 34:30 love the surge. Sorry. Victoria Raschke 34:33 Oh, no, go ahead. Christine Grace 34:35 I just I love the surge of interest in pagan parenting lately, like I am so excited to see more books being published in there mostly, like aimed at children like pagan children's books, but I I just love it. I'm pumped about it. And I feel like for so many years, like the only advice I could really give was well, There's this book called Circle Around, there's Puka Pages, which the founder of that died recently. So there's not Puka Pages anymore, but and then, you know, use Waldorf resources because the seasonal approach is still there. So you will be able to kind of pull some ideas from those practices and integrate them into your [unclear]. But now, there's just like, there's like all these other resources out there. And I'm just, I'm really excited about the world of children's book publishing. Right now. Victoria Raschke 35:38 Yeah, I'm hoping to entice a couple children's pagan, children's, pagan children's book pagans. Yeah. Like, [crosstalk] The words do not want to come together. Yeah, pagan children. But that's author to come on then. The show because I think though it's not something I have read or isn't as much my son is 20, almost 27. So obviously, it's not, not a current need. But for me personally, it's a current need in the world. And so I really would love to talk to those folks too. So if anybody's listening who's a children's book author, call me. But I also like the second book, I guess, has an immediate interest for me too, because I do think, and I think you bring this up actually, in The Witch at the Forest's Edge that, you know, there is an edge of danger sometimes to hedge riding, or ritual possession and those things that if you have trauma in your past, those can definitely open those wounds, or put you in a place you didn't expect to be because you're in this space. And I think even with just day to day ritual, if you have religious trauma, just even something that's ritualized, if you come into a highly ritualized, you know, birth religion, or whatever you want to call it, that you were raised in into paganism that can be triggering to to have a hierarchy of things. So I think that's really interesting to talk about. Christine Grace 37:07 Yeah, no, it's, it's absolutely true. I mean, we're all coming into our practice of the craft as whole human beings as people with our traumas, with our diagnoses, with our histories. So of course, I think there's no way to there's no way to separate our humaneness from our witchness. So there's that but also, I think, at the same time, ritual can be such a powerful catalyst for working with your own trauma. I absolutely trained as therapists super support the traditional mental health pathways in no way suggesting that ritual is a substitute for mental health care, but I have certainly found for myself, and for others who are close to me, that doing the work in ritual, alongside therapy and medication and whatever else, you know, is called for in an individual's situation, can just bring a piece to our own work that is typically missing in conventional mental health care. Victoria Raschke 38:26 I mean, the spiritual aspect is often left out. I do think of traditional mental health care. I'll be excited when this book happens whenever that is, I mean, I'll be looking forward to it. So in the interim, if people want to catch you now, where's the best place for people to connect with you? Christine Grace 38:52 Well, I'm taking like little like, almost a break from Instagram right now. But you can still find me there @awitchbetwixt But I'm not like posting every day religiously anymore. There is a Discord server called witchchord where I can be found. There's ChristineGracebetwixt.com, which is my website. Obviously, I'm on the tradition Discord. Victoria Raschke 39:21 Yeah. So good places. So you know this because I sent you a list of questions that our last question is a bit of a game of chance [laughter] to talk about things that you know, people aren't supposed to talk about, although I have said this multiple times the whole podcast is that a tiny bit. So I'm gonna roll the dice and for for you, because I know from the book and from talking and from knowing you that you work with runes I chose, my son got me a D&D set that has runes on it, and the dice, have runes on it. So I picked that one out for you. It's very heavy metal, so it's probably going to clank on the desk If I roll a one, we get to talk about death to sex three, religion for politics. Five, many and six, you get to pick which one you want. [Christine interjects: Wow, okay.] And I rolled a six, so you get to choose. Christine Grace 40:17 Oh, well, I don't know, that's a lot of responsibility. [laughter] I don't know, whatever you want. Victoria Raschke 40:29 It's tangental to your book, tangential to your book, or writing in general is not a totally random question. Christine Grace 40:35 Yeah, whatever you want to pick. I don't care. None of those are like, as troublesome to me to discuss. Victoria Raschke 40:43 Well, I mean, they're not troublesome to me obviously. So you don't talk about this directly. But when you do talk about ancestors and working with ancestors in the book of the spiritual I ignored, like, lineage, bloodline ancestors. But we don't really talk about, like, if, because the tradition is not dogmatic in any way. Like, what happens in your belief system when we die? What happens to us? Christine Grace 41:10 Yeah, well, so here's the thing, I don't really know. And I am okay with kind of living in that state of uncertainty. I know, most people are really uncomfortable with that. But I am kind of okay with being like, I'm not exactly sure how that system works. All I know is that from my own experience, and from folks who I know, we are able to work with our ancestors. So whatever that means about The Afterlife is what it is. You know, I, I like to think about kind of the literal, physical kind of recycling process of a body decomposing into soil. And I like to kind of envision at least an aspect of what happens after we die. Being kind of integrated in that way. So spirit-wise, and body-wise, there's like, kind of a recycling process going on. The idea of kind of like, one to one reincarnation, like, a whole, like, spirit is one person and then in the next life, they're like, a new person. And like that, that like soul, that spirit stays like entire throughout that process. That doesn't make a ton of sense to me. I'm not saying it's not true. I don't know. But that's not, that's not my favorite theory. So I do I like the recycling piece. But then if we are recycled, in some sense, then how is it that we're interacting with our ancestors? Is there a piece of us that doesn't recycle? Is there is it like, this is my this is my favorite, that the kind of like molecules of us remember where they come from. So even if my grandfather is now like, part, daffodil, like part fish and whatever, that when I'm working with my grandfather as an ancestor, the, that process doesn't make it impossible to connect with his spirit that all those pieces can kind of resonate together, I guess. But I don't know. I don't know what happens when we die. Victoria Raschke 43:39 Yeah. I mean, I did not ask you because I wanted your, you know you to pronounce for everyone. But I was curious. But you're actually Yeah, I kind of in the same boat. Like, I don't really know. I'm okay with it. I didn't know where I was before I got here. And that's never bothered me. Really. Yeah, I have the same recycling thought too like if I can have this relationship with ancestors, they can't be 100% reincarnated. So you kind of come away with the same, like, how does this work? [laughter] But yeah, I mean, it's something I do think about it a lot. And partly, I mean, it's partly because it's a theme in my writing is, you know, kind of this interaction with the, the afterlife and ancestors and things like that's a big part of my my fiction writing. So it's something I think about a lot and I'm always curious as to what people where they are in that realm of what they think happens. Christine Grace 44:43 Me too. It's something I love as a teacher, and I think because I have sort of an open ended, like, I'm kind of comfortable with having a kind of open ended perspective. It's not like threatening or upsetting to me to hear, like a very different perspective, but everybody wants to talk about it. And it always comes up because we're talking about ancestors. We're talking about being able to have relationships with ancestors. So what does that mean? And it always comes up and everybody has, like a slightly different perspective. And it's something I really like discussing. Victoria Raschke 45:23 I would say, same time. Yeah. Well, I'm glad we got to talk about that. And we got to talk about lots of other things. And so hopefully, the podcast lasts long enough that when you write, your pagan parenting book and your trauma book, you can come back on the show. Christine Grace 45:42 Yeah, that'll be a good long run. Victoria Raschke 45:45 That would be great. Christine Grace 45:46 I'll wish that for you. Yes, thank you so much for having me on. Victoria Raschke 45:52 Thank you. WitchLit is production of 1000Volt Press, and is edited by keifel agostini who also designed our logo. Our music is Voices composed for us by Aleksander Senekar. You can support our work, get early access to episodes, ask your own death, sex, religion, politics, money question, and get some free stuff by joining our Patreon at patreon.com/witchlitpod. Transcripts and all our previous episodes are available at witchlitpod.com and you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter @witchlitpod. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and consider giving us a rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps other witches find the show. Thanks for listening and for reading witchy. Transcribed by https://otter.ai